Police interview of Robert Pickton – February 23, 2002

// September 18th, 2016 // Resources

The following is a transcript of the police interview with Robert Pickton (Canada’s Pig Farm serial killer) on February 23, 2002.

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SGT. Bill FORDY: Just have a seat. Yeah, just have a seat there. Okay, so you got some

juice down there this morning?

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s right.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Was it, fresh juice?

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, it’s orange juice.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Orange juice. (STARTS NOTES) (INDECIPHERABLE) Okay. I

never got a chance to introduce myself downstairs Rob ah, my

name is Bill FORDY and I’m a Sgt. and I’m with the RCMP. I’m a

police officer okay um, but while we’re here today I don’t want you

to get all caught up in official titles or anything like that. Ah, my

friends call me Bill and I prefer that you call me Bill okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: Okay.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Now, is it okay if I call you Rob?

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay Rob. Um, like I said to you Rob, I am a police officer

okay. Ah, I didn’t mean not to say anything to you on the way up

there,it’s just …

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Ah, I wanted to wait until I was in the interview room here with you

so that everything that I say to you ah, is recorded, because we are

being video recorded in here today okay. There’s a video recorder

up there and that’s ah, for your protection and my protection okay.

Before I start to talk to you ah, Rob there’s a couple of things that I

want to make sure that you understand okay. Ah, one thing that I’m

gonna tell you Rob is that ah, I’m gonna treat you with respect here

today. Okay. Um, I’m not going to be mean with you and I’m not

gonna yell at you, I’m not going to get physical with you. I’m gonna

treat you with respect and I’m also gonna treat you with dignity

okay. Because if I was sitting in that chair that’s how I would want to

be treated quite frankly. Okay. And I’m also gonna give you my

word that nobody else is gonna treat you physically. Okay nobody’s

gonna hurt you or try to hurt you or anything like that. Alright I give

you my word on that. Alright you understand that . . .

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum. Um, hum.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay. Because I am a police officer though um, I do have a job

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to do okay. And you were arrested yesterday um, for ah, murder.

ROBERT PICKTON: Right.

SGT. Bill FORDY: For a couple of murders. Right.

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s what they say.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. Bill FORDY: You, you were um, arrested yesterday in ah, at the work site right?

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay, by a fella and you were told that um, you know, you’re

under arrest for two murders and…

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s what they say yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay. And that, that’s actually what’s happening is you know,

charges already have been laid, information an, information an, is

the, the actual charges that get sworn before ah, you know an

officer of the court and the police have done ah, pretty, started to do

a pretty thorough investigation. What they’ve done is they have al,

they have formally charged you with two murders. Alright and you

were told about those yesterday. In addition to those…

ROBERT PICKTON: I was told about them today. That’s besides the point. I mean I was

charged yesterday but I was told about ‘em today.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay. Um, but you were arrested yesterday?

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah, okay. In addition to those two murders ah, Rob, the police

are also investigating obviously the disappearance of you know

approximately fifty ah, workers…

ROBERT PICKTON: (LAUGHING)

SGT. Bill FORDY: …in …

ROBERT PICKTON: Oh well.

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SGT. Bill FORDY: …from the downtown Eastside. Okay now, I see you’re laughing

there. Let me clarify something okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: Okay.

SGT. Bill FORDY: You haven’t been charged with those fifty murders.

ROBERT PICKTON: (LAUGHING) I think, I don’t think so.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Alright.

ROBERT PICKTON: Anything can be.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay, well I ow, I’m not here to trick you…

ROBERT PICKTON: Oh.

SGT. Bill FORDY: …alright and that’s why I’m explaining things to you here. You

have been charged with two. Alright and the investigation as you

can imagine it’s, it’s pretty significant you know, you got, you’re like

the Pope for Christ sakes (CHUCKLES). And um, but one thing that

I’m obliged to do and other police officers are obliged to do Rob, is

when you’re being investigated for something, we’re obliged to tell

you what you’re being investigated for. And that’s why you were

told yesterday and/or this morning about all the other murders that

ah, you’re being investigated for . Now I didn’t say you’ve been

charged with those murders okay. Just that I want to make sure that

you, you’ve got that clear in your head. Now I know that yesterday,

when you were brought in ah, that you spoke with your lawyer. Last

night I guess right.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum. (NODDING)

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay. Now your conversations with your lawyer are privileged.

Right.

ROBERT PICKTON: What?

SGT. Bill FORDY: What, what that means is that you don’t have to tell me anything

that your lawyer said to you. Alright.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: You have, you have a, an agreement between each other.

You’re, you’re the person that’s obviously in this situation,

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ROBERT PICKTON: No kidding.

Sgt Bill FORDY . . .she’s the person…

ROBERT PICKTON: No kidding.

SGT. Bill FORDY: …that give you. Yeah, I know, I can’t imagine how you feel.

Probably got a million questions going through your head and my

job is to answer some of those questions today here for you. Right.

But when you saw your lawyer, your lawyer gives you advice okay.

And you don’t have to talk to me about what that advice is you

know, I’m sure I know what it is and, and quite frankly I’d be very

surprised if it was anything other than, you know, don’t talk to the

police.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yes, that was, I was aware of that too.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay good. Generally that’s what ah, the advice that they give.

And you know what, I’m not going to ah, badmouth your lawyer or,

or suggest anything um, ah, to you um, to try to change your

position because you get your advice from a lawyer right. My job as

a police officer right, is to come in here and try to find the truth

about what you’re involvement is in this you know, humongous

investigation. Obviously ah, Rob as a police officer and as a person

I would like you to tell me exactly what your involvement is. Right. If

any in ah, this, this massive investigation.

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know what’s’ going on.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay. And I’m gonna explain a lot of those things to you Rob.

Okay. So I’m gonna ask that you be patient with me. Alright.

Because um, there is a lot of stuff for me to explain to you and I

want to make sure that I do it a good job, do a good job. But one of

the things that I really, really want to ah, make sure that I’m con,

confident with and that you’re comfortable with is that you

understand the seriousness of this investigation. Alright.

ROBERT PICKTON: (SIGHS) Yeah, I guess so.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay. So you understand that you are charged with two

murders?

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s what they say yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah. Well you have been charged okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s what they say.

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SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay, the police what they’ve done is they’ve gathered evidence

and they’ve met with Crown Prosecutors and based on the

evidence as it stands, stands now, they’ve decided that yes ah, the

evidence is at such a level that you know, it’s in the public’s interest

for us to lay an information, or lay a charge.

ROBERT PICKTON: Okay.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay. Do you understand that?

ROBERT PICKTON: Yes.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Alright. And based on the way the investigation’s going and the

way that the evidence is coming in, you’re also suspected of, of

ah, being involved in the disappearance and murder of the other

girls.

ROBERT PICKTON: (LAUGHING)

SGT. Bill FORDY: Alright.

ROBERT PICKTON: Well…

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah, and I know it might, it might seem um, humorous but you

know, and I guess, and there probably is a side that you want to

share with me but I’m just obliged to tell you that and I’m gonna

treat you with respect and dignity Rob, I’m telling you that up front

okay. One thing that I do want you to know, and you understand

this I’m sure, is that in Canada there are certain things that we’re

required to do by law. Right. Like for example you drive a truck,

right?

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay, before you drive a truck what do you need?

ROBERT PICKTON: You need a valid driver’s license.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Alright, so you understand okay. So that’s the law, the law says that

if you want to drive a truck you need a valid driver’s license alright.

In Canadian law there’s also something else that you don’t have to

do. (PICKTON SHRUGS) Alright. Quite simply Rob one thing that

you don’t have to do is you don’t have to talk to me.

ROBERT PICKTON: Right.

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SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay because, the law considers me to be a person in authority,

right. Ah, this is a criminal matter obviously that we’re here for

today. And you know these are very, very serious ah, allegations.

And as a police officer, as, as a, a um, you know someone who ah,

is a policeman right, I can get subpoenaed to court, any court in the

country for that matter. I’ve been in courts in different provinces,

you know, different jurisdictions, different cities, different towns

okay. And I can give evidence alright. I mean I can give evidence, I

can get called to give evidence on what takes place right today

between you and I. Alright.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. Bill FORDY: So it’s important to me that you understand ah, that you don’t have

to talk to me and that anything that you do say could be given,

given as evidence because we’re being video recorded right. And

you know what Rob, that’s not only for my protection, that’s

(POINTING AT CAMERA) for your protection as well.

ROBERT PICKTON: Right.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Alright and I’m sure you can appreciate that right, and you’re

probably glad it’s there at some level, I would imagine.

ROBERT PICKTON: Well not much I can do about that anyways, I mean it’s here or

there.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: I’m not trying to hide anything but.

SGT. Bill FORDY: No and you know what, I thank you for that. Um, and that’s not

necessarily a bad thing. Alright. So basically the way I see it right

now is, and I want to make sure we’re on the same page. You know

that I’m a police officer, alright. That anything that you say to me

can be given as evidence, alright. That you don’t have to talk to me.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Alright that right now yes, you have been charged with two

murders.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Alright and that you’re being investigated for ah, upwards of fifty

other disappearances and/or murders. Right?

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ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay in your own words Rob, can you explain to me what that

means to you?

ROBERT PICKTON: What that means, what, what it means to me?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: Hogwash.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Pardon.

ROBERT PICKTON: Hogwash.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Hogwash. Okay. Tell me more.

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s all I can really say, I can’t tell you much, like I don’t know

nothing about this. It could be set up.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum. I, I guess what I’m , want to make sure of is that we’re

on the samePage here, as we go through because we’ve got a lot

of stuff to go through. So I, I want to make sure you and I are on the

samePage in so far as um, who I am, and what my job to do here.

My job here, here today is simply to find the truth. Alright. But

before I do that I want to make sure that you understand where I’m

coming from. Because I don’t want, I don’t want, to show you any

disrespect and I want to make sure here today that I treat you the

way I would want to be treated if I was sitting in that chair.

ROBERT PICKTON: There’s nothing to say, I haven’t been told nothing.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay. Let me ask you something Rob. Why do you think I’m here to

talk to you this morning?

ROBERT PICKTON: Well you just said that you want to ask me a few, ask me questions.

Cause you want to get, you want to see but I, I don’t know what to

say, I don’t, I’m, I’m mind baffling and I’m just a working guy. Just a

plain working guy, that’s all I am.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum. (PAUSE 5 SEC)

ROBERT PICKTON: Now I got all this charges.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum. (PAUSE 15 SEC) yes.

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ROBERT PICKTON: Well it’s a little far fetched isn’t it?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Well we’re gonna talk about that later Rob. What I’m gonna do is go

through it ah, a lot of this investigation. As you can imagine Rob ah,

this investigation is huge, it’s massive (PICKTON LAUGHS). I

wasn’t joking when I said you’re, you’re as big as the Pope earlier

alright. But before I do that Rob, and I don’t mean to, to over kill it

but, you know it is real important to me to understand ah, you. I

mean I’ll be honest with you, that’s one of the reason’s I’m here

today is to try to understand you. So I want you in your own words

though, to tell me why (KNOCKING) you think I’m here talking to

you.

(10:23)

Sgt Jim HUNTER: Can I see you for a sec?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Sure (LEAVES ROOM FOR 20 SEC).

SGT. Bill FORDY: Thanks, appreciate that. Rob that was one of my ah, partners.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Ah, just knocked on the door there. The reason that he’s knocked

on the door is that your lawyer’s called here this morning for you.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Ah, were you expecting that call?

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay. Ah, do you want to call him? Do you want to call him back, or

her back?

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s, that’s possible.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Do you want to, I guess that’s my question.

ROBERT PICKTON: Please.

SGT. Bill FORDY: You do. Okay. Absolutely. Um, I’m gonna promise you one thing

okay here today.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. Bill FORDY: I’m gonna shake you’re hand on it because I’m a man of my word.

I’m going to treat you with respect and dignity here today.

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ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay. Um, I’m gonna treat you the way I would want to be treated if

I was sitting in that chair. Alright.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay. Let’s go get you a, take you downstairs, you can phone your

lawyer again. Alright.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: And I’ll shake your hand on that and give you my word okay.

Thanks. (BOTH LEAVE ROOM FOR 14 MIN)

SGT. Bill FORDY: (MAKES NOTES – 10:39:43 BACK IN) Okay, where were we. Um,

so you spoke with your lawyer there, everything’s okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Who was, who was it on the phone?

ROBERT PICKTON: Some lady I guess, lady.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Oh, do you know her name?

ROBERT PICKTON: Not off hand.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Do you know it was a lawyer?

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: How do you know it was a lawyer?

ROBERT PICKTON: Cause I was talking to her yesterday.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Oh, okay (MAKING NOTES). Excellent. Alright. Now I can imagine

um, like I said to you, what I’m hoping to achieve here today Rob is

simply to have a better understanding of this entire investigation.

And quite frankly to have a better understanding of you um, as an

individual and as a person. Alright because ah, the person sitting

there right now is important. Ah, I don’t know whether or not you

sometimes ask yourself what kind of person you are. But …

ROBERT PICKTON: Well I’m just a pig man that’s all I got to say (CHUCKLES).

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SGT. Bill FORDY: You’re just a pig man. Okay. Um, one of the things that I’ve got to

do is obviously go over all this stuff with you but before I do that um,

I want, there are some other things that I need to cover off. Ah, so

that I have a better understanding you, of you. Now you’re

comfortable then with having spoken with your lawyer, you’re happy

with what your lawyer said to you?

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay. Do you understand what your lawyer said to you?

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay, because generally ah, their advice is not to talk to the police

okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s right.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Now not unlike when you know, I guess in the early eighties there,

you were involved in an investigation with the police and you made

a decision at that time to go and show the police where a number of

cars were buried. Right, you, you were cooperative. Right. Do you

remember that?

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, yes, but there were no vehicles buried.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Pardon me.

ROBERT PICKTON: There was no vehicles ever buried.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Oh, okay. My understanding was that I’m just going on what I was

told, and I guess the reason I’m telling you that is simply to

underscore that …

ROBERT PICKTON: My brother was beaten.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Your brother was beaten?

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay I’m not sure what you’re talkin’ about.

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s here nor there.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Alright. Let, let me say this I guess. This might be a good way to put

it ah, Rob. You were told ah, by your lawyer not to talk to anybody

right.

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ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. Bill FORDY: And then you spoke with another police officer the last, couple of

days, Cst. LILLIES.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay, and Rob was mad at you for doing that? Or I’m sorry, your

brother was mad, Dave.

ROBERT PICKTON: Mmm, I don’t know.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay. No, my understanding was through some of the other

investigators that he gave you ah, gave you shit for that.

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay. I guess my point being is that you know, you make a decision

on what you want to do, whether or not you want to talk. Your

brother might say don’t talk to the police, you’re lawyer might say

you don’t talk to the police, everybody might say don’t talk to the

police. But at the end of the day Rob, that decision to speak or not

to speak is yours. Alright. As a police officer I have to give you that

opportunity to tell your side of the story if you want to. But that

decision to do it, to speak with, with the police or not to speak with

the police, is yours. Alright, it’s important to me that you understand

that. I can’t, I can’t force you to or I can’t make you say anything

you don’t want to say. You get your advice from people, from

lawyers, from family, from friends and then it’s up to you to do what

you want to do. Alright. Like somebody might say to me Bill don’t

eat junk food, it’s not good for you, it’s not in your best interest to

eat chocolate bars cause its gonna make you fat. And I might still

eat a chocolate bar, that’s my choice. Right that’s like this situation

you know, you’re given advice alright, but at the end of the day

you’re the person sitting in the chair, and you’re the only one who

can make a decision on what you do want to do.

ROBERT PICKTON: Well at this stage here, I can’t really say for anything really, cause I

don’t know anything.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay. And that’s my job Rob, my job is to come in here and explain

some stuff to you and then once you’ve a better understanding you

can choose whether or not you want to explain that stuff. Alright,

because that’s gonna be your choice I’m not gonna force you to say

anything. I’m not gonna make you do anything you don’t want to do.

Nobody can ever make you do that, nobody can make Robert

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PICKTON say or do anything that he doesn’t want to do. Whether

it’s not saying anything or whether it’s saying everything. Okay,

that’s your choice. And it’s really important to me that you

understand that because I am a Canadian citizen and Christ one of

my best friends played on the Olympic team I mean how much

more Canadian can I be. Alright. And Canada’s a very good country

and those rights are very important and it’s, it’s important you

understand that. But before we get to that, there’s some things that

I need to know about you. Mostly, mostly for administrative

purposes Rob but I’ll confess ah, make a little confession myself

here to you, partly because I’m interested. I’m interested in getting

to know ROBERT PICKTON a little bit. Ah, I’m a student of human

behaviour alright. Ah, one of the things that I enjoy about my job is I

get to talk to lots of really interesting people and I like to learn about

people. Quite frankly, it’s very, very interesting. You know we all

have hobbies, we all have interests. One of my things that I find

interesting is people and how do people end up the way they end

up. Now quite frankly Rob at the end of the day here, you could be

ROBERT PICKTON: I’m just a pig farmer.

SGT. Bill FORDY: You could be just a pig farmer or you could be somebody very, very

important. You know, so I got some background stuff that I’d like to

cover off here with you. Now some of it I already know, some of it I

don’t okay. Um, stuff that I know I’ll quickly, I’ll quickly jot in. What

they do is when they have ah, huge investigations like this, they

keep statistics ah, you know, so they can look at different types of

offences and, and different types of people in order to understand

them (PAUSE) and get to know them a little bit alright?

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum. Whatever that means, I don’t know, this is, well it’s, okay,

whatever.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay. Now before I do that though, let me ask you something. Let

me ask you one thing okay. What do you think of me?

ROBERT PICKTON: What’s that?

SGT. Bill FORDY: What do you think of Bill FORDY?

ROBERT PICKTON: Well you’re a human being, just like I am, we all walk on two legs

and you breath the same air and just because other people gets

higher than other people. I ain’t a college graduate and you

probably you have and otherwise we’re all the same.

SGT. Bill FORDY: I agree.

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ROBERT PICKTON: We use the same washroom, we use the same, same drinking

water. Anymore I can’t say more than that.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum (PAUSE – 10 SECONDS).

ROBERT PICKTON: About all I could say.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: My line of pigs. Pigs that are brought up for meat.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: Anything more than that…that’s what animals are for.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: And, I’m the bad dude.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum. (PAUSE 15 SEC) yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: But that’s life, life goes on, we’re only here today, we’re not here

tomorrow, we’re not here forever.

SGT. Bill FORDY: You know what you sound a lot like me, I have a line that I say to a

lot of my friends, life is not a rehearsal.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, another thing is if I could turn time around, change a few a

things whatever I did wrong. But I don’t think I ever did anything

wrong. I wouldn’t change my life very much.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum. It’s funny you say that, I, I look back on my life, you know

when I think about my upbringing and you know, things that

changed my life really, and you know, I look back and probably the

worst thing that ever happened to me, is I was 18 years old and I

used to be a jock right, a hockey player, and I was drafted to go to

try out for the Hartford Whalers in, in the NHL and then I broke my

shoulder. And as a result of that I ah, broke my hand twice, my arm,

my cheek bone, I ended up playing in the minors Rob but you

know, I never achieved my goals or my dreams in life. You know, it

just never worked out the way I, I thought it would work out when I

was you know, in my early teens. And I look back on my life and

that’s probably the worst thing that ever happened to me. What,

what’s the worse thing that ever happened to you Rob?

ROBERT PICKTON: Got knifed back in ‘97.

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SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum. Tell me about that.

ROBERT PICKTON: Not much to tell you, it’s all black and white.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: It’s all black and white. I’m a bad dude, it’s the name of the game I

guess.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: And they nail you to the cross if you can. I mean, when you pay,

when you pu, when you push against the wall as far as you can go.

Until the wall moves back, you move back with the wall.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Interesting.

ROBERT PICKTON: You take him to the cross and you…, you get nailed to the cross.

SGT. Bill FORDY: So if I was holding up a mirror then, I think what I’m hearing you

say, if I was, if I was holding up a mirror in front of you right now

Rob, and I said describe yourself as a person, how would you do

that?

ROBERT PICKTON: Well we wear the same kind of, same clothes, same shoes, just

different sizes, that’s it.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: (INDECIPHERABLE) males and the females we’re just built a little

different. Otherwise that, we’re actually the same.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum. Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: That was it.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Alright now, that’s on the outside. Alright, that’s your, that’s right

you’re talking about you know, we all kinda look the same. Tell me

about you on the inside Rob. What kind of person are you on the

inside?

ROBERT PICKTON: Like which way?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Anyway.

ROBERT PICKTON: We eat the same food, we go to the same toilet, the same

washrooms, same everything else.

Page 15 of 252

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum. (PAUSE 15 SEC) yeah. Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: And I seen people die earlier than others … cancer

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: …so on and so forth.

SGT. Bill FORDY: My mom died of cancer.

ROBERT PICKTON: My mother did too.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yours did, how long ago?

ROBERT PICKTON: 1979. April first.

SGT. Bill FORDY: What kind of cancer did she die of?

ROBERT PICKTON: Spreading cancer.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Brain.

ROBERT PICKTON: Spreading.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Spreading oh, it was all, it was in her body, so it was pretty bad

obviously. Did she die in the hospital?

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: How old were you Rob, when that happened?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know.

SGT. Bill FORDY: So you said ‘79. Alright. What was your mom’s name?

ROBERT PICKTON: Louise Helen.

SGT. Bill FORDY: I’m sorry?

ROBERT PICKTON: Louise Helen

SGT. Bill FORDY: Louise Helen. Same last name as you?

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah. They were married eh.

SGT. Bill FORDY: How did you get along with your mom, when you were a child, how

Page 16 of 252

did you get along?

ROBERT PICKTON: Two peas in a pod.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Oh, is that right. I had a good relationship with my mother too. So

you guys were close obviously.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum, yes. (PAUSE – 5 SECONDS) Yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Do you miss your mom?

ROBERT PICKTON: Well do you?

SGT. Bill FORDY: I do yeah. Yeah, I do.

ROBERT PICKTON: Tit for tat yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: I look back on my life um, you know, and my mom, I’ve got ah, a

brother and two sisters and I look back on my life and I consider

myself to be a really hard worker. You know, I’ve got um, you know,

faults like everybody I guess, but I guess my best fault is that I’m a

hard worker. You know I can work for eighteen hours a day for you

know, weeks on end and I pride myself on being a hard worker.

You know, some people aren’t like that and I give all that credit to

my mom because my mom was a hard worker and ah, she took

care of my brothers and my brother and my sisters and I. And if I

look back on my life, she’s the person that I respect most in the

world.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Who do you respect most in the world?

ROBERT PICKTON: Who do I respect most in the world. I worked hard.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: Got close to my mother.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum. What qualities did you respect in her?

ROBERT PICKTON: How does that word out?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Pardon me?

ROBERT PICKTON: How did that word out? What does that mean?

Page 17 of 252

SGT. Bill FORDY: What, what do you like about your mom?

ROBERT PICKTON: Strong.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: Strong.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum. And when you say strong, what do you mean by that?

ROBERT PICKTON: Strong mind, strong willpower.

SGT. Bill FORDY: When I think about my mom, I always describe her as

hardworking and a good woman.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

(11:00)

SGT. Bill FORDY: You know. How do you think about your mom?

ROBERT PICKTON: The same way. Same way (PAUSE – 15 SECONDS) Same way.

SGT. Bill FORDY: So when your mom had cancer was it a quick death or did she die

slowly?

ROBERT PICKTON: Four months.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Four months huh. Did she die at home or in the hospital?

ROBERT PICKTON: She died in hospital.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Where you, were you able to be there with her when she died?

ROBERT PICKTON: Well I was around, I didn’t know where I was.

SGT. Bill FORDY: You weren’t able to go to the hospital and be with her though,

cause, were you workin’ or? Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: Taking care of the farm.

SGT. Bill FORDY: On the farm. You were taking care of the farm? Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: What about your dad, Rob?

Page 18 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: He died back in ‘77.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: January first.

SGT. Bill FORDY: January first.

ROBERT PICKTON: My mother was born in March 20th, 1912.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: Dad was born in 1896.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum. What was his date of birth?

ROBERT PICKTON: My dad?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: Unknown. Born in England.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Oh. Is PICKTON an English name?

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum. My mother was born in, in Saskatchewan.

SGT. Bill FORDY: So was ah, my, my mother. So was my grandmother.

ROBERT PICKTON: Raymond’s Creek.

SGT. Bill FORDY: I’m sorry where?

ROBERT PICKTON: Raymond’s Creek.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Raymond’s Creek yeah. Small, it must be a small town.

ROBERT PICKTON: Just outside Swift Current.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay. Did you get there often?..How did you get along with your

dad as a child?

ROBERT PICKTON: What’s that?

SGT. Bill FORDY: How did you get along with your dad as a kid?

ROBERT PICKTON: Good.

Page 19 of 252

SGT. Bill FORDY: Where you around when he passed away?

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: How did he die?

ROBERT PICKTON: Old age.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay. Jes, he had a pretty good life didn’t he?

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: So your dad died first and then your mom died after of cancer, she

was alone. Oh, too bad. Was she lonely?

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: No it’s kinda funny I ah, half heartedly I always joke around with ah,

my friends and about how I’m gonna die. You know, I’ve always

kinda said oh, when I die I hope it’s listening to U2 driving you

know, on the, along the freeway and ah, I hope it’s quick (SNAPS

FINGERS). In December last year, I was out driving on the northern

part of the Island on my way up to do ah, a help out on an

investigation and I was listening to U2 and I lost control of my car

and went into the rocks and rolled my car a couple of times and I

still can’t figure out why I’m here because ah, I probably should

have died that day. You know, so it was kinda like I almost called

my own death. How do you want to die?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know. I don’t know. Old age probably.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum. Like your dad.

ROBERT PICKTON: We’re here as long as we’re here for.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: And there’s a reason we’re here for.

SGT. Bill FORDY: There’s a reason you say?

ROBERT PICKTON: There’s always a reason between everything.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Well I agree with you. I agree. I sometimes ask myself why did I

break my shoulder you know and not make, I told you about, the

worse thing that ever happened to me. And I asked myself

sometimes, why did that happen? You know, a lot of my friends

Page 20 of 252

have gone on and made millions of dollars and, and I didn’t you

know, I’m ah, I’m proud of who I am but I ask myself why, why did

that happen? And I guess the answer I always find is everything

happens for a reason, but sometimes we search for the reason.

What do you think the reason that you’ve ended up here today is?

ROBERT PICKTON: Don’t know. Don’t know. You’re only here today, you’re not here

tomorrow.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Life is not a rehearsal. (LAUGHING) you sound just like me. One

thing that I do consider myself fortunate is ah, I’ve got a couple of

kids Rob, a couple of little rascals that keep me up at night and

drive me crazy in the morning you know. Probably the best thing

that ever happened to me was the birth of my kids. You know, I look

back on my life and you know, I might have ah, ended up Christ, I

could be in that chair. You know, having kids changed my life.

Probably the best thing that ever happened to me was having kids.

Without a doubt.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. Bill FORDY: What’s the best thing that’s ever happened to you?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know, work.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: I went on a holiday once.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Where’d you go?

ROBERT PICKTON: Kansas City, Missouri.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Hum. Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: I had a return ticket.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: Cash it in up there, that was in 1974.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: February, I think it was February 8th I had a ticket.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

Page 21 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: By United Airlines.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: Cashed it up there. I had two hundred dollars cash on me in

traveler’s cheques and a return ticket. But I cashed it up there, I had

a chance to work for forty bucks an hour when I had, to work up

there. I don’t know back from holidays. Had to go back in Canada to

get to cash, cash it in. I was twenty-four at the time. Couldn’t rent a

car…and George Washington was giving cherry pies away.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, I went by bus to Kansas City, Missouri, St. Louis, Missouri,

all the way to Chicago, Chicago’s a dirty town.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: Lots of blacks over there, not that I’m prejudiced or anything.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: But you have to aw, you gotta be careful there at nighttime.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: Why is that, because there’s no gas. Now you can get five, if you

can get two or three dollars of gas, two or three gallons of gas

you’re lucky. Cause there was a gas war.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: I mean, different pen pals all the way around. Going from place, to

place, to place, to place, meeting all these people.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: I was gone for six and half weeks. I was engaged.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: But, she couldn’t leave her job and I couldn’t leave my job. I had to

get back to the farm.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: So she’s probably married off by now and everything else.

Page 22 of 252

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um.

ROBERT PICKTON: Her name was Connie ANDERSON.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

(PAUSE 20 SEC)

ROBERT PICKTON: She’s probably married off, she got kids and everything else.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s a long time ago.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

(PAUSE 20 SEC)

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, she’s probably married off.

(PAUSE 30 SEC)

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

(PAUSE 30 SEC)

ROBERT PICKTON: But I had to get back to the farm.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: I enjoyed myself.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: And I never get there.

SGT. Bill FORDY: I’m sorry, pardon me?

ROBERT PICKTON: I never got down to the States again.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: Well that’s life.

SGT. Bill FORDY: You said that you couldn’t rent a car, and they were giving cherry

pies away, what, what do you mean by that?

Page 23 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: George WASHINGTON chopped a cherry tree down.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: And giving cherry pies away. Every time you go into the stores

somebody gotta give me a cherry pie.

(PAUSE)

SGT. Bill FORDY: Uh, huh. Did you have any cherry pie?

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Do you like Cherry pie?

ROBERT PICKTON: Oh, it’s all right. Next to rhubarb.

SGT. Bill FORDY: My favorite is Pumpkin, I was gonna say.

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t eat any vegetables.

SGT. Bill FORDY: You don’t eat vegetables at all, just meat.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: What’s your favorite kind of meat?

ROBERT PICKTON: Pork.

SGT. Bill FORDY: (LAUGHING) that’s a silly question eh? Yeah, of course it is. Um,

so how did you meet Connie?

ROBERT PICKTON: Pen pals, writing, writing, writing back and forth.

SGT. Bill FORDY: And then you hooked up with her down there? How long did you

spend with her?

ROBERT PICKTON: Five weeks.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Did you enjoy it?

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: When did you get engaged?

ROBERT PICKTON: Down there.

Page 24 of 252

SGT. Bill FORDY: Like right away, or …

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Like automatic love eh, you just knew this was the girl.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: What did she look like?

ROBERT PICKTON: Tall, blond, very nice.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: Five foot ten, eleven.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Five foot eleven. Wow.

ROBERT PICKTON: Heavy set, I mean nice size, nice, nice, nice body, nice …

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: Hundred forty pounds.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum. Um, hum. (PAUSE – 15 SECONDS) So you guys were

together for five weeks.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. Bill FORDY: And then ah, she said she couldn’t come up?

ROBERT PICKTON: No she was supposed to come up but she never did.

SGT. Bill FORDY: What happened, her parents wouldn’t let her come or what?

ROBERT PICKTON: No she couldn’t get time off work.

SGT. Bill FORDY: What kind of work did she do?

ROBERT PICKTON: She worked in ah, she’s works in the Bay, she was ah, yeah, head

one in the Bay.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Oh, so she had a big job kinda thing.

ROBERT PICKTON: She wanted me to stay down there and I couldn’t stay down there.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Why not?

Page 25 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: Cause I had to run the farm.

SGT. Bill FORDY: What about Dave or your sister?

ROBERT PICKTON: No, not my sister, knows nothing. My brother nothing.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Did you explain to them that you met the girl of your dreams?

ROBERT PICKTON: Well shit happens.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: It does happen.

SGT. Bill FORDY: So when you and Connie were down there having ah, tell me…

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s in Pontiac, Michigan.

SGT. Bill FORDY: That’s right yeah. Okay. General Motors has a plant there I think

now. What kind of stuff did you and Connie do?

ROBERT PICKTON: Well we just go here, go there, meet different people.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: You know, she’s not a bar scene or anything else, I’m not neither.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum. Sightseeing and traveling around.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: What was your favorite thing to do there?

ROBERT PICKTON: Going out.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: Enjoying ourselves.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Just having fun you know.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Just enjoying each other’s company.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

Page 26 of 252

SGT. Bill FORDY: Kind of thing yeah. Connie ever meet your mom?

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Cause your mom was still alive in ‘74.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Did you tell your mom about Connie?

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: What did your mom think about that?

ROBERT PICKTON: It’s alright, it’s cool.

SGT. Bill FORDY: So she was supportive of you guys developing this relationship?

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah, what about your dad?

ROBERT PICKTON: My dad, always on the go, keep the farm going.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum. What…um, hum. So what did he think about Connie?

ROBERT PICKTON: Who?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Your dad.

ROBERT PICKTON: Whatever. Never really talked to my dad much.

SGT. Bill FORDY: No. So you guys didn’t have a very good relationship as kids…

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Just didn’t talk a lot.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, we were working.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Always working. So your mom was the one that you were, was the

one you were closer to eh?

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. Bill FORDY: You’re lucky. Some people don’t have that relationship with their

Page 27 of 252

moms.

ROBERT PICKTON: No. No problem. Very close to her.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Got a picture of her?

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. Bill FORDY: You don’t have any or…no. Do you look like her?

ROBERT PICKTON: Never looked at it that way. Well my sister looks like her more,

more than me.

(11:20)

SGT. Bill FORDY: Linda. Tell me about Linda.

ROBERT PICKTON: Well not much to say about her. She went to school, Catholic

school she’s growing up.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s about it.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s about it. Never me and Linda was close. I’m always

working on the farm she always like, she always like the ah,

highlights. That’s good. She enjoyed it, she enjoyed herself.

SGT. Bill FORDY: When you say like the highlights, what do you mean by that?

ROBERT PICKTON: Well she like the ah, she likes to go out, go here, go there. Not that

I’m against anything.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: But she likes ah, she went to school, private, to University

everything else. And myself um, I don’t have anything, any problem

with that or anything, I think it’s good. But like I says, I mean some

people can make it right through school, some people can’t.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah. I ah, my brother has a University education and stuff and I

don’t, it’s always kinda one of the things I wish that I had done you

know, gone to school, but you know, once I started playing sports

and then started working you know, it became more important to

me.

Page 28 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. Bill FORDY: And maybe someday I’ll go back to school but ah, you know I’m

always kinda glad my brother did it but I wish I would have done it

too you know. What did she take in school?

ROBERT PICKTON: Lawyer I think.

SGT. Bill FORDY: She’s a lawyer?

ROBERT PICKTON: Well she ah, lawyer or um, a what do you call it, sells properties

now.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Oh, Realtor.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Making tons of money I bet.

ROBERT PICKTON: Oh, I don’t know. That’s her own perogative …

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: She just does what she wants, when she wants but I don’t have no

problem with that.

SGT. Bill FORDY: So was she a hard worker on the farm?

ROBERT PICKTON: No, she never worked on the farm.

SGT. Bill FORDY: You mean she grew on, she grew up on the farm but never worked

on it?

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Hum. That seems kinda bizarre.

ROBERT PICKTON: No. No she’s just herself. That’s what she wants, that’s what she

wants so no big deal. I don’t have no problem with that. My brother

bought the first machine in 19, 1974.

(11:24)

SGT. Bill FORDY: Dave.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah. So the year that you met Connie?

Page 29 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, this is the fall of ‘74.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Tell me about Dave.

ROBERT PICKTON: Well hard working guy.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: What should I say about him?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Is he a good guy . . .

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: . . . good brother, supportive.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Does he abandon you, tell me about that?

ROBERT PICKTON: No. No.

SGT. Bill FORDY: I think back about my brother and I, man did we have some fights.

We’re friends now, but boy I tell you growing up, someone would

have looked at us and thought those guys aren’t very close.

(LAUGHING)

ROBERT PICKTON: Well we had, we always had the odd quarrel…

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah

ROBERT PICKTON: …everybody does.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: But…I enjoy his company.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum. What kind of things do you guys do?

ROBERT PICKTON: Like what?

SGT. Bill FORDY: You say you enjoy his company, like doing what?

ROBERT PICKTON: Working, working together.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

Page 30 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: I like working.

SGT. Bill FORDY: So do I. What do you like about work?

ROBERT PICKTON: Anything. Anything in general.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: Framing houses all the way up to flooring, fabricating, anything.

SGT. Bill FORDY: (PAUSE – 15 SECONDS) Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s about it, (INDECIPHERABLE) there.

(PAUSE)

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum. So Dave’s a good, good guy, you enjoy his company.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: You don’t ah, you were never close to Linda, who’s your best

friend?

ROBERT PICKTON: In which way?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Any way.

ROBERT PICKTON: Any good friend, what kind of friend are you referring to, girlfriend,

boyfriend…

SGT. Bill FORDY: Well I got some close buddies that if I was ever in a jam you know,

in the middle of the night I could call ‘em and say hey man, I ah, I’m

in trouble, can you come and help me out? You know, they’re,

they’re friends of mine that I know that would always be there for

me. You know, good, bad or indifferent. Those are my good friends,

you know, four or five guys that I consider good friends. That some

I’ve known for a long time, some I’ve only known for a little while but

I consider them good friends. People that you know, if they were in

a jam too, I would help them out unquestionable. No questions,

they are my good friends.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, lots of friends.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Who’s your best friend?

ROBERT PICKTON: Everybody.

Page 31 of 252

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t hold anything, anything back from nobody.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: Male or female.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: If they’re in a jam I help ‘em out.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: Ah, I’ve even got stolen, stolen, stolen, stolen stuff off me and I go

right back there and help ‘em out again.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: Maybe someday they’ll help me. Even if they gonna steal from me.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: And someday you’re gonna be in the same boat.

SGT. Bill FORDY: What goes around, comes around.

ROBERT PICKTON: You got it.

(11:30)

SGT. Bill FORDY: What qul, what qualities, what things do you like in your friends?

ROBERT PICKTON: In which way?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Well ah, some of my best friends are hard workers, they’re honest.

ROBERT PICKTON: Doesn’t have to be honest.

SGT. Bill FORDY: What qualities do you like in your friends, what things do you like?

ROBERT PICKTON: Doesn’t matter. Doesn’t matter. I don’t knock anybody down.

SGT. Bill FORDY: You don’t like anybody to get down?

ROBERT PICKTON: No, I said , I don’t knock anybody down.

Page 32 of 252

SGT. Bill FORDY: Don’t knock anybody down, I’m sorry. Well that’s a good quality to

have.

ROBERT PICKTON: Thank you. Because someday you want to expect the same for ah,

a in return.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: Even if they do steal from you.

SGT. Bill FORDY: What qualities do you disrespect in people Rob?

ROBERT PICKTON: People stealing, but the problem is, I overlook it all the time. People

I know steal.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: If you haven’t got money out there, if you don’t have money to buy

it, you don’t need it.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: But otherwise that, like I says, we all wake all up in the morning, go

to sleep at night, which use, always in the same bed…Someday you

won’t wake up.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: But the sun still comes up.

SGT. Bill FORDY: It doesn’t come up on you, that’s the only difference.

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s not, no, not necessarily. It still comes up, if I’m ten feet

under, it’s still gonna come up.

SGT. Bill FORDY: That’s true, you’re absolutely right.

ROBERT PICKTON: It’s still gonna come up. My mom’s gonna shine.

SGT. Bill FORDY: It’s interesting when you say stealing. I talked to people sometimes,

and the word stealing has different meanings to different people.

You know some people, you know if you ask what do you mean by

stealing Bill um, you know some people steal money, they steal,

they steal stereos, they steal TV’s. Other people steal dignity, steal

respect, stealing is an interesting word, it’s an interesting concept.

When you say that you disrespect people that steal, what do you

Page 33 of 252

mean by that?

ROBERT PICKTON: Well if you have tools and you depend on your, on your tools to go

work and you don’t have ‘em, you can’t work.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s what I’m saying.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: If you don’t have your tools you can’t work.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: And the foreman says hey, that’s not my problem.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: So you gotta go out there and get ‘em again.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: And even if you leave ‘em on the job site and they’re all locked up

in containers, and trailers and all that.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah. (PAUSE)

ROBERT PICKTON: I built a house in ah, in ‘74, four thousand square foot house,…’84.

‘84.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Where’d you build that?

ROBERT PICKTON: Oxford and Fraser, Coquitlam. It used to be a church with a house

on the side.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: So I renovated the whole thing, tore it all apart, rebuilt it.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: But life goes on. I guess you just build a house and you do this and

you do that (SIGH) …you die tomorrow, another person borns.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

Page 34 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: Life goes around and around.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah. Now you said to me the worst thing that ever happened to

you was getting stabbed.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah. That wasn’t the worse thing.

SGT. Bill FORDY: What was the worse thing?

ROBERT PICKTON: Tore apart by two pigs.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Tell me about that.

(PAUSE 20 SEC)

ROBERT PICKTON: I think it was ‘75. I was breeding a trying to breed a sow, it’s a big

pig, I know she’s in heat. Anyways I brought the boar in there to

breed it.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: The boar turned around, didn’t want ah, didn’t want any part of it.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: So then I bro, put that one back in his pen, brought another one out.

I guess I never locked the pen good enough. Jumped out of the

pen, both boars started fighting. I thought they were gonna kill

each other. I got in between ‘em and instead as they took then they

went after me. Got all slashed up. I broke them up anyways, so

went down to the hospital, that was around July ‘94 ah, no ‘75.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: I went to the hospital, got myself to the hospital. Went down to get

sewn up, got me half sewn up. They asked me what happened, I

said I got mauled by two wild boars. They cut all the stitches apart,

said we can’t do nothing for you. So they wrap me up and says go

home and rest, legs up in the air for the next three weeks. Gotta let

it drain. I said I can’t, I gotta operate a farm. They said you gotta

have somebody else to do it, to run it because you can’t do it.

Anyways that was July that’s when I crawled and got a tractor. I got

power in the right leg but no power in the left leg. But is, when I

have to put a brake on, I have to use my hands to push my knee

down to activate the brake. I finally got to the hay field, I took the

people off the hay field and put ‘em in, in the barn to look after the

Page 35 of 252

animals. I try the hay ah, went on the tractor there, I couldn’t stop at

the store, cause I couldn’t get out of the tractor my leg was just

swelled right up. It was hot that day, real hot. I was in a fever, took

my T-shirt off, took all my clothes off, took my pants off, but ooze

that stuff was just running down my leg, puss and everything else.

But I stayed on the tractor. I got burnt. Heat from the ground, the

heat from the tractor, the heat from the sky come on top of you. And

you have water blisters on your back.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Mmm.

ROBERT PICKTON: And every time they pop, it runs all the way down your back, just

like I got whipped. I kept up there. I kept it. I got burns. Every time,

cause I was, I was just a cob (INDECIPHERABLE)

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: The only thing I had shorts, that’s the only thing I had on. I was

burnt.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: Burnt. Another time is when I was thirteen years old, and I was

chased by a black bear. They didn’t quite get me out of that ah,

plum tree. That was in the fall.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: When I was thirteen.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: ‘78 I got mauled by big Angus bull.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: That was the summer of ah, summer of ‘78.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: That was a scary feeling one time there. Cause you see there was

grass on the ground, solid grass came right up, right up in your feet,

right in front of your eyes. And the grass goes on top of the back of

the animal. Turn the other hoof and if your arm’s out there, rip your

arm right off. But those are the good old days.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

Page 36 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: Those are days when I could say I got scars and I enjoyed myself. I

couldn’t move for three or four days that time. I was all black and

blue.

(PAUSE 20 SEC)

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: Anymore than that I don’t know. Had my truck crushed once, I got

crushed. Working on a bobcat, safety release, released, I thought I

unlocked the safety but I guess I didn’t, came down and took,

crushed my hard hat, I just barely got out.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Mmm. Tell me about your horse.

ROBERT PICKTON: Which one?

SGT. Bill FORDY: The one that was in your trailer.

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s my horse, that’s my horse. Born March the 20th, 1977 4:28

in the morning. I killed it in 1981 December the 21st first day of

winter. Reason, helping two girls out. (PAUSE 20 SEC) Tanya

CARR, you know, no, no, no. Joanne HUNT and Tracy. They had

two, two horses one was Anglo Arabian, one was a purebred

Arabian. It was born on my mother’s birthday. The reason I put it

down cause them horses were little mares and mine was a stallion

fourteen hundred pound stallion. Their horse kicked my horse in the

back leg, if the bone’s broken I can repair it, cost me five thousand,

but you can’t repair a knuckle. A person can get a replacement on a

knuckle and baby it. A horse can’t baby it cause that tear and twist

wrong way and that’s, just adds broken again. A horse is not like

that. I trained that horse to do everything, I could let that thing lay

right down flat, when you get on it. I took it to shows, and that horse

there, I looked after it. So I took it, I got to the, veterinarian to put it

down, I couldn’t do it. Jim BRYANT to put it down. 1981 December

the 21st 5:30, 5:45 pm. Somehow keep it. So I got a head mount.

Took me eleven months to get it back from the taxidermist. But I’ve

had about thirty, forty other horses after that, trying to get another

horse to match it, match that one there, nothing.

SGT. Bill FORDY: It was a beautiful horse. What was his name?

ROBERT PICKTON: (INDECIPHERABLE) Spring Golden.

SGT. Bill FORDY: What was his nickname then?

Page 37 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: Goldie

SGT. Bill FORDY: Beautiful. Never replaced it I guess.

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s right.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Fourteen hundred pound stallion.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Probably never dreamt of ever getting hurt by those little things

would you.

ROBERT PICKTON: Eight hundred pound fillies.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Two of them.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah. They had no place to keep them so I took them to my place

but again an accident. We are here today not tomorrow, the best

goes first.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum. That’s what they say isn’t it.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, (INDECIPHERABLE).

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah. So you used to keep Goldie on the pig farm? How, how did

ah, you get into pig farming, just through your dad?

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah. Many years ago.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yup. Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: Many years ago.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: ‘57, ‘58. We opened up the first little butcher store, it was on 25,

2426 Pitt River Road. That’s where our house came from.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Moved. Ah, interesting.

ROBERT PICKTON: We moved the house there back in 1968, the fall of ‘68…when I was

three years old. Stood on top of my dad’s truck playing with the

steering wheel and everything else so put it in neutral and

bought some (INDECIPHERABLE) little pigs, took ‘em out for a

ride. Pigs are bailing out of a truck, dad is running after his truck. It

was all make believe.

Page 38 of 252

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: When I was about two years old, two and a half I want to go back in

the house because it cold out . . .couldn’t. We used to live on the

side of the, side of the hill. My dad always walked with a limp,

always says because walking up and down that side of the hillside

all the time. So I helped there. I think in fact it was actually short.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: Or the rats chew the wires or something, I can’t remember now.

Just, just take the floor off the bottom to get the floor off, and we

had a running spring ran into, ran into the, run into the ground.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: We had, that’s where we were getting the water from. Throw the

bucket in there, cause it let’s the water out.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s where you get the water from. And if wanted to get a bath,

have to heat the water up, you get a bath. There was

[INDECIPHERABLE] nine of us in the cabin there. I think they are

all dead now.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Nine.

ROBERT PICKTON: Nine people in the cabin there.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Who were the nine people?

ROBERT PICKTON: (SIGHS) Stanley, my dad Leonard, my mother Louise, me, Dave

and Linda. No yeah, Linda and Dave.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: No. Me and Linda, my mother was expecting Dave.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Your mother what?

ROBERT PICKTON: My mother was expecting Dave.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: I guess I was one and half when I was there. My sister was about

three.

Page 39 of 252

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: I think Clifford. I can’t remember all.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Who’s Clifford?

ROBERT PICKTON: My dad’s uncle.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Were you guy’s close? (TAKES OFF HIS JACKET)

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah. Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum. Stanley, I think it was Stanley right, Stanley died in 1963.

Um, hum. The last day of work.

SGT. Bill FORDY: And what happened?

ROBERT PICKTON: Hit by a drunken driver.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Drunk driver. Brutal eh? Did you ever drink and drive? You don’t

drink right?

ROBERT PICKTON: No I don’t.

SGT. Bill FORDY: And did you ever when you were a kid.

ROBERT PICKTON: I got drunk once, I was twenty-four years old.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: I was twenty-four years old.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: My own birthday. No may, maybe twenty-three. I don’t know,

twenty-two to twenty-four somewhere’s around that. Cause maybe I

was twenty-four cause I think it was my twenty-fourth. I’m not too

sure, maybe around twenty-three, twenty-four anyways they gave

me seven screwdrivers and I, and they says only orange juice. And

I said that’s pretty strong orange juice. Anyways the other guy has

(11:59:40) rye and seven, I see you’ve been drinking. I said you know, how

about, how I drive cause I haven’t been drinking he says, you had

seven orange juice. I says yeah, I know strong, a little strong. And

he says orange juice and vodka. A couple of hours later you feel a

Page 40 of 252

little lightheaded, I smoked too when I was four years old. My

mother says you want to smoke you want to be a man. So THEY

give me a cigar. So I smoked the cigar and that’s the last cigar I

ever had.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: I used to go behind the TV and smoke. Nothing

(INDECIPHERABLE)

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum. Who’s cigarettes were you smoking?

ROBERT PICKTON: Hired hands working for us.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Working for you guys on the farm. So who taught you how to

butcher pigs?

ROBERT PICKTON: Bob KORAC.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Bob, a family friend.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: How old were you?

ROBERT PICKTON: Around 13 years old. He had a, he’s a Croatian guy.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: Anyways, he works at the Olympic Meat Packers.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Olympic. Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: And ah, when I was 13 years old I went to the auction sale, bought

the first calf, I was gonna keep this calf for the rest of my life.

SGT. Bill FORDY: And you what?

ROBERT PICKTON: I said I’m gonna keep this calf for the rest of my life.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: That was before I got chased by the black bear.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: Anyways and I says, came back from school, sleeping with the calf

Page 41 of 252

all the time. Might, I might be around 12 before, I got mauled by the

black bear. But I want to sleep with it, I played with the calf,

everything else then I turn around and (YAWNING) oh excuse me,

I’m gonna keep this calf for the rest of my life. And says, … then ah,

I came back from school two weeks later, the calf was gone,

(INDECIPHERABLE) with everything else and then I asked, I says,

around the house there, where’s my calf, where’s my calf? And they

says maybe, maybe you’ll take a walk down the barn. No. No way,

they kill animals down there. No way. No, cause it’s too and I told

him not to go down there. Told him not to go down there cause they

butcher anim, butcher animals down there. Anyways, I looked all

over, everywhere’s else and he says maybe you want to take a

walk down to the back. I said no, no, no it’s not down there, I told

him not to go down there. So I says, maybe, maybe it did go down

there, they said to me. Okay maybe I’ll go down there. I’ll, I’ll just

sneak around back there and have a look. And I won’t go down to

where they do the butchering. Anyways, there’s my calf upside

down, cleaned out, butchered it. I couldn’t talk to anybody for about

four days.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: When you’re a Scorpion you have a strong sign.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: Then they sent us for ah, you got X many dollars for it. You go buy

another one. I said no, I want that one.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: And I finally realized that we’re not here forever. We’re here for the

time we’re here for.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: Even with, I got this big scar here, (MOTIONS TO HIS RIGHT EYE)

couple of years ago, tearing a gas tank open, gas tank exploded,

blow side of face off.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: But I’m still alive. But that doesn’t make me, make me a mass

murderer. But the problem is, that’s life, life goes on. Life goes on.

Life goes on. I mean myself, I mean…

SGT. Bill FORDY: Rob you yourself said it earlier, everything happens for a reason.

Page 42 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: Everything usually happens for a reason.

SGT. Bill FORDY: How, how did you get into butchering pigs?

ROBERT PICKTON: How did I get into butchering pigs?

SGT. Bill FORDY: First of all let me ask you, you gotta go to the bathroom or

anything?

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay, you hungry or anything like that?

ROBERT PICKTON: I haven’t eaten anything since yesterday evening.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Are you hungry though?

ROBERT PICKTON: Ah, I haven’t had anything.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Would, would you like something are you hungry? I guess I’m

asking…

ROBERT PICKTON: It doesn’t matter.

SGT. Bill FORDY: …I mean I can’t read your mind.

ROBERT PICKTON: It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter. Myself, sometimes when I’m

working I don’t even eat.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s the problem I mean I don’t know, the lawyer says, I want you

to tell ‘em to get, get you something to eat or whatever. I says it

doesn’t matter.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Tell you what then why don’t we get you something to eat. Tell you

what, if I got a sub would you want one, would you take one?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t need any, anything fancy.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay. What, what do you like? I’m pretty flexible, except chicken, I

don’t, I don’t eat, I’m allergic to chicken believe it or not.

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t eat no lettuce or anything else, I don’t eat that stuff. No

celery, no lettuce, no mayonnaise no nothing.

Page 43 of 252

SGT. Bill FORDY: You want like ah, roast beef or roast pork or roast turkey. Sub on

a bun.

ROBERT PICKTON: (INDECIPHERABLE) How did I get into butchering pigs? The most

pigs I butchered in one day…thirty-four head.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Wow. Impressive.

ROBERT PICKTON: That was December 23rd right through to December the 24th

(PAUSE 20 SEC) I think it was ‘77.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s the most I did in one day.

(12:09:45)

SGT. Bill FORDY: Thirty-four in one day. How did you learn to do that though.

Somebody must have taught you or was that Bob? The Croatian.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, he helped me out, he helped me. And the most lamb I did

one day was about twelve.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum. What’s the fastest you’ve ever done one?

ROBERT PICKTON: There’s nothing fast about it.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Well once you’re good at it you’re probably take pride in how

quickly you can do it. It’s like anything else.

ROBERT PICKTON: There’s nothing fast about ‘em, I mean the problem is you’re gonna

do, you’re gonna do it. You want to do it nicely, you gotta make it

respectable because people gotta eat it.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: So nothing fast about anything.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: Myself, I mean I have seen people butcher lambs and goats and

everything else and they don’t, they don’t criticize anything, they

don’t salvage anything or anything else, they just chop it all up, they

don’t care how dirty it is or anything else. I like to keep everything

clean.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

Page 44 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: So the problem is, you gotta do a clean job. Cause this is for the

public, this is not for (YAWNING) every Tom, Dick and Harry. So

there’s nothing fast about anything, it’s just time consuming.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: If the water is not, the water temperature is not right then it takes

you that much longer. Some weeks I was doing up to a hundred

and fifty a week.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum. (PAUSE 20 SEC) So I’m not born, I wasn’t raised on a

farm.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Ah, explain to me how you do that.

ROBERT PICKTON: About what?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Give me a free lesson on where you hang them, do you, how do

you kill them? How do you do it?

ROBERT PICKTON: Well you gotta make sure the pot just gets the right temperature

water.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s ah, that’s half the battle.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum. (PAUSE)

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s half the battle beat, is you have the water temperature.

(PAUSE 20 SEC) that’s half the battle beat. If you don’t got a

temperature you don’t do anything.

(PAUSE 15 SEC)

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum. (FORDY TAKES A DRINK OF WATER)

(PAUSE 40 SEC)

ROBERT PICKTON: (YAWNING) excuse me.

SGT. Bill FORDY: So what do you do with the water?

ROBERT PICKTON: What do you do with the water? Pig in there.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

Page 45 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: Till the hair comes off.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: Till the hair loosens off, and you strip the hair off.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s about it.

SGT. Bill FORDY: So it’s still alive when you put ‘em in the water?

ROBERT PICKTON: No. No. I got my own little handgun, gun down there.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s, that’s, that’s my Hilti.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: Hilti Four hundred.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: When I use that. Big boars, I did some big boars.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: The biggest one I did was nine hundred and eighty pounds.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah. Wow. (PAUSE 20 SEC) So was it you know, you, you told

me how much you like working and enjoyed the pig farm, Rob what

is it that you enjoy the most about the pig farm?

ROBERT PICKTON: Nothing. Can’t I ‘aint in it for the money. I want to get out.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: And everybody else they just keep, you do, do this one for me, and

do that one for you and…

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: And I just, I do ‘em for a favours for em, just to help them along.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum. Um..

Page 46 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: Okay.

SGT. Bill FORDY: What do you think, you killed ten thousand or five thousand, how

many pigs did you killed?

ROBERT PICKTON: Me?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Closer to ten or closer to five?

ROBERT PICKTON: Five thousand? …Ten thousand.

SGT. Bill FORDY: More than ten you think?

ROBERT PICKTON: Possible. But I don’t know.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum. Lot’s I bet eh, over all those years.

ROBERT PICKTON: Quite a few.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Who’s the ah, the best butcher you’ve ever seen?

ROBERT PICKTON: Best butcher I ever seen? Like who? Rephrase yourself, I don’t

know what you’re referring to?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Like I mean, obviously you’ve been around the farm a long time,

and you’ve slaughtered lots of animals yourself and prepared them

for people to eat. You know, you’re not every normal Tom, Dick or

Harry so you’ve obviously been around other people that have done

the same thing. Some are good, some aren’t very good. Right?

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Who’s the best?

ROBERT PICKTON: Everybody got their own certain ways of doing things.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: And there’s people, well I know people comes over even hours,

hours, all night long, everything else.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, like I says I don’t know who is better than the next.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

Page 47 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: But they all, they all ah, they all butcher animals or whatever you

know.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: There’s lots of people out there.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Lot’s of people out there ah, killing animals and stuff. Yeah, that’s

what they’re for right?

ROBERT PICKTON: Well I guess so. I guess so. Mmm.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Let me ask you something Rob, how do you feel about being, sittin’

in here and talking me, with me today?

ROBERT PICKTON: Alright.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: Alright.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Now I don’t have to tell ya, ah, how big this investigation is do I?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know what’s going on.

SGT. Bill FORDY: This is a massive investigation.

ROBERT PICKTON: I heard about that too.

SGT. Bill FORDY: It’s huge. Ah, I’m gonna tell you that in all the time I’ve been in the

RCMP um, I’ve never seen an investigation that has ah, unlimited

people and unlimited money like this one does.

ROBERT PICKTON: I’ve heard that too.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah, you know ah, after this investigation broke um, last week,

some of the best policemen in the province were brought in and are

working on this investigation, helping out. That scene up there, that,

your property, it’s huge. And I don’t know if you know how many

people are actually even working up there. Ah, they’ve brought in

Forensic Identification people there, people that are experts in

crime scenes. Alright. They’ve brought in Forensic Anthropologists

know what an Anthropologist is, is that’s somebody that studies

humans and the evolution of man um, so that when they’re going

through ah, that scene because it’s so massive and they’re, they’re

discovering all these different type of ah, not bod, call them bones I

guess. That the experts are able to look at them and say well this is

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one thing, this is another thing, and this is something different yet.

So they’ve got Forensic Identification people, they’ve got a Forensic

Anthropologist ah, they might even have a Forensic Entomologist

there, which is ah, a person that studies bugs and different types of

bugs and different types of soil and how that gets to be the way it is.

They’ve brought in experts in blood splatter, or spatter. Ah, you

know, people that are trained by the FBI and ah, the best colleges

in the world on how to analyze blood and stains and patterns and

how they work. And ah, you know, when they look at something,

like you and I might look at it and think well it looks like blood, but

they’re able to say how it got there, and you know, was it a

something like a, brushed, like smudged or you know, when I mean

you blow your nose and it falls on the ground or was it dropped or

was it gushing like, if you took a drop of water and threw it on the

wall. Like these people can tell the differences between those types

of stains. They’ve brought those people in. They’ve got people

from the ah, Forensic Laboratories and they’re people that come in

and um, are experts in seizing DNA. Um, and we’ll talk a little bit

about DNA later on. Everybody has their own DNA, like you and I

have different DNA.

ROBERT PICKTON: My mother was the same DNA as me though.

SGT. Bill FORDY: No, it would be different.

ROBERT PICKTON: Is that right.

SGT. Bill FORDY: But if they took your mom’s DNA and your dad’s DNA and put them

together they’d be able to narrow down your DNA. But it would be

different. Like I, I, I know of two twins ah, they’re identical twins a

Wade LYMBURNER and Ward LYMBURNER. Like if you looked at

them, honest to God Rob, you’d say holy jumpin’ it’s a clone. Like,

well you know, how they’re doin’ those cows now, but they have

their own DNA. It’s a make up of in our cell right. In our cells.

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know, I don’t know nothing about that. This is like I said, I’m

just a pig farmer so I don’t… (LEANS HIS HEAD ON HAND).

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah, I’m gonna explain that to you so that you understand that. If

you have any questions I want you to ask me okay. And say to me

Bill, you know I’m not a hundred percent on what you mean by that,

can you explain it to me. Um, because that’s my job is to help you

understand this situation. Quite frankly, honestly, to help you

understand yourself and for me to try to understand you as well in

this process here today okay. So there’s a Forensic Anthropologist

for the bones, Entomologist for the bugs, they’ve got crime scene

Page 49 of 252

people there to gather in fingerprints and evidence. They’ve got

blood spatter there, analyzing, interpreting all the different blood

cause there’s blood everywhere and forwarding those for analysis.

Alright. They’ve got special lights out there you know, I’m gonna

show you some pictures later on that ah, fluoresce different types of

thing. Like you know blood looks one way in a certain type of light

and it looks different in a different type of light. There’s special

lights that these experts have that helps them in their

investigations. Alright. And as you know that whole property is

secured now. There’s policemen there ah, twenty-four hours a day,

right and they’re gonna probably be there for a year.

ROBERT PICKTON: A year.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Oh yeah. Oh yeah, what they’ve gotta do and it’s, it’s really this,

and like I say, when I heard that too I said the same thing, I said a

year. But what they’ve gotta do is because they’ve gotta take all the

dirt down, plus it looks like, what they’re gonna do is they’ve set the

first target at twenty-five feet. So they go down, they go down to the

ground level right, and then down twenty-five feet.

ROBERT PICKTON: Really?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Like below the surface right? That’s why it’s gonna take so long.

Like if this is the ground, right here…

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Right, you and I are standing on this well they’re gonna take the

ground down to here but they’re also gonna down. That’s why

they’ve brought in all this mil, million dollar equipment. Some of the

same stuff, it is funny, we were laughing ah, that ah, the United

States had over in um, Afghanistan looking for Bin Laden you know.

You know, you might have saw it on the TV

SGT. Bill FORDY: …they had all the ground searching equipment.

ROBERT PICKTON: What are they looking for?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Bin Laden. When they…

ROBERT PICKTON: What are they looking for anyways?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Well they’re looking for any evidence that you know, will help clarify

your involvement in this investigation. Now it’s gonna do a couple of

things. It’s gonna you know, help everybody ah, get closure to this

and it’s gonna you know, help in painting a picture about what you

Page 50 of 252

are too. The kind of guy you are. That’s one of the things, one of

the aspects to that, that investigation. Another thing that they’re

doing um, and you know I don’t mind telling you is, some of the

people that ah, you know are friends of yours. That’s why I was

curious as to who you thought your best friends were earlier.

ROBERT PICKTON: I got lots of friends.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: Hundreds of ‘em.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah. Your kinda like me you got a lot of, lot of people that you’re

associates with. I’m a little different I’ve got you know four or five

good friends that I consider my, my good friends you know. Cause

we have, a lot of people have a lot of friends but some people have

good friends. I’m, I’m lucky I have good friends that, that I know ah,

would never do anything and would always be there for me. I’m

pretty lucky to have those people. One of the things that they’re

doing obviously and at this, in addition to doing this monstrous job

at your ah, farm, is some of the people that you, you know were

associates of yours have been interviewed and um, you know, were

they, and I’m not even sure if I want to use the word friends, where

they were maybe were ah, people that may or may not have been

close to you, now are, have a better understanding of ah, what’s

going on.

ROBERT PICKTON: What is going on?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Well you’re gonna be charged and ah, go to court and convicted of

at least two of those murders. Alright. The investigation’s huge and

it’s gonna identify all the other ones that you’re involved with. Or

any of the involvement that you had. And you know what Rob, I’m

not saying that you killed all fifty of those girls. Maybe you did,

maybe you’ve killed more, maybe you’ve killed less, you know. And

you’re the only person that’s gonna tell me that and you know, quite

frankly I wouldn’t believe other people. The only person I’m gonna

believe is you, when you make that decision. Alright. What they’re

doing is talking to people that ah, that you’ve been around. People

that have been associates of yours ah, over the last fifteen or

twenty years. Um, with the resources and when I say resources I

mean, with the people that are now involved in this and with ah, the

backing of senior management and Vancouver City Police and the

RCMP they now have the amount of police investigators to go out

there and talk to everybody. You know, and initially people were a

little bit reluctant to talk because you were still ah, out you know,

you weren’t charged yet. So people think, well you know, it’s so on,

Page 51 of 252

he’s not gonna get charged why would I want to cooperate. And but

once you know, people realized that yeah, he is being charged with

this, you know, and he did do those things, now they’re

cooperating, saying holy jumpin’ you know, I’d better be honest with

things here. And I’ll be honest with you too, a lot of those people

are expecting you to be honest here with me today. And when I

said to you earlier, that decision to be honest or not is yours and

nobody’s gonna take that away from you. Some of the best

policemen in the province are working on this investigation. I’ve

never seen anything like it quite frankly, to be honest with you. And

I’m gonna talk to you about some of that evidence, about DNA

because when you have DNA. And I’ll, I’ll draw you a picture here.

(STANDS) Okay, when you have DNA, let me tell you about a case

that I worked on okay. I used to work in Surrey, right. I was in the

ah, Serious Crime Section here, in Surrey Detachment and I used

to work here. And in ‘96 there was a girl and her name was Helen

COOK and Helen lived up in Surrey, up in North Surrey (SITS) and

one night she was home alone and a guy by the name of Peter Van

OSSELAER okay, Peter, went into Helen’s house. Okay. So that

Helen’s in her house, and I’ll just draw it. So she’s in her house,

that’s Helen COOK. Peter goes in that house and tries to do a

robbery. Okay, he tried, he tried to steal from Helen, that’s what

he tried to do. And they got into an argument cause she woke up in

the middle of the night and she went and grabbed a knife. Now

remember how you told me that the worse, one of the worse things

that ever happened to you was when you got stabbed. Now I think

you’re probably talking about ——- —————— right or ———?

ROBERT PICKTON: That was ah, that was one night yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Was that the stabbing you were telling me about? (STANDING)

ROBERT PICKTON: One yeah, yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay, remember when that happened to you, like remember when

you saw her grab that knife what went through your head.

ROBERT PICKTON: I didn’t even see her grab the knife.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay. Remember when you started getting stabbed and you felt

that pain?

ROBERT PICKTON: I didn’t feel no pain really.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay. Anyway, Helen wakes up and Peter sees her, Helen grabs

the knife and they start a struggle. And in that process Peter takes

the knife, goes around the back of Helen like this, cuts her throat

V(6) V(6)

Page 52 of 252

like that. Right. Well what he did is the way he grabbed her like this

right, like this, he nicked his finger. So not only was there her blood,

there was his blood. Okay. So there’s a big it’s called pooling of

blood, on the stairs and then Helen runs out. She goes out of the

house, she ends up dying on the front lawn and Peter disappears.

He doesn’t know that Helen’s dead. Okay. What Peter did is when

he ran up the stairs to get out the door, because he had blood on

his finger, went up, and up the side of the wall, left blood, left his

blood. So in addition to her blood, (DRAWING) her DNA on the

carpet, his blood is on the wall. Alright. So we call in some experts

in blood stain and crime scenes and they take blood samples from

the floor, where the stabbing happened. But they, they can’t explain

how this blood gets on the wall right. So they take the samples of

that blood on the wall. During the course of the investigation they

identify Peter as just a suspect alright, they didn’t know he was

there, they didn’t, he wasn’t the primary suspect, he was one of,

you know, two hundred suspects at the time. So what they did, is

they followed him and they got his DNA. Alright. Cause we all have

our own DNA. They sent his DNA to the lab where they had the

DNA from the scene that was in the house, right on the, on the side

of the wall (DRAWING) and it’s a match. So they’re able to say that

blood on the wall is Peter Van OSSELAER’s. So Peter’s arrested,

right and then he’s charged. Just like you’re charged now. And he’s

charged with the murder of Helen COOK based on the blood on the

wall. Now I go to court in New Westminster cause I was the

investigator and there’s no other evidence, the only evidence is the

blood. Peter Van OSSELAER got convicted of murder and got

twenty-five years in jail based on a couple of cuts on his finger.

Twenty-five years. (DRAWING) Convicted. Judge and jury … gonna

be in jail for twenty-five years, based on DNA. Okay. You’re DNA is,

is unique to you just like Peter’s DNA, Peter Van OSSELAER was

unique to Peter. Okay. Do you understand that.

ROBERT PICKTON: (YAWNING) Yeah, but what that’s got to do with me?

(12:38)

SGT. Bill FORDY: (SITTING) Okay I’m gonna explain that to you alright. DNA is, so if I

said to you that ah, I had your DNA on this marker, right.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. Bill FORDY: How would you explain that?

ROBERT PICKTON: Well fingerprint.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay, if you touched it with your hand yeah, that would leave DNA.

Page 53 of 252

So what you’re telling me is you would have had to touch it, that’s

right. What else?

(PAUSE 15 SEC)

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know. (YAWNING)

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay, let me ask you this alright. Rob. Would it be possible for your

DNA to have been in this room yesterday?

ROBERT PICKTON: Anything’s possible.

SGT. Bill FORDY: No, that’s not my question. Would your DNA have been in this room

yesterday?

ROBERT PICKTON: Possible.

SGT. Bill FORDY: How is that possible?

ROBERT PICKTON: Well anything can be set up or anything could be put in that’s not

there.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay. If you have never been in this room would it possible for your

DNA to be in this room? The answer’s no. Right. You have to agree

with me on that.

ROBERT PICKTON: (YAWNING) Not necessarily. Could be set up.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay. But I mean let’s in the absence of being set up, it’s not

possible for your DNA to be anywhere right?

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay, good, I’m glad you agree with me on that because that’s an

important point. One of the things that ah, I know Rob ah, through

my experience is that there is always two and there is sometimes

three or four or five sides to every story.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, (YAWNING) there’s more than, there (INDECIPHERABLE)

there’s not always one side to a story cause there’s always two

sides or more.

SGT. Bill FORDY: That’s right. You and I were outside and you know, we saw two girls

run down the road and one of them fell down. You would see what

happened differently than what I would see right. Or if there was an

accident you would see it different than what I would see. Because

we’re different people right.

Page 54 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know. I’m not sure. (YAWNING)

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay. Do you just think back to when um, you initially had your

incident with ah, the girl that stabbed you. Alright. Do you

remember that incident?

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Now when that went to the police, there were two sides, you gave a

story and she gave a story. Right?

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. Bill FORDY: There’s always more than one side to a story. Right?

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. Bill FORDY: I don’t care what you’ve said to anybody else, about your

involvement with those other girls.

ROBERT PICKTON: Which other girls? (HEAD ON HANDS)

SGT. Bill FORDY: Any of the girls. Just a second. (STANDS AND BRINGS OUT

PICTURE BOARD) What I want you to do Rob I want you to have a

look at this poster and I want you to tell me as best as you can

remember. Okay, can you see it okay, can you hold it there. Hold

that up for me. I want you to, let’s just walk through them, and tell

me what girls that you remember have ever been out to your place.

And let’s just walk through them, but we’ll start here okay and just

take your time. Number one? Has she ever been to your place?

ROBERT PICKTON: (SHAKING HEAD “NO”) I don’t know, there’s so many people

coming in and out of my place I don’t know.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay, this is, this is real important though.

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay, what about this number, number two? (PICKTON SHAKES

HEAD “NO”) If you don’t remember just say no, and if she has been

then just say yeah. Number three? (PICKTON SHAKES HEAD

“NO”) Number four, remember her, she’s got a lazy eye. Has she

ever been to your place? Number five, has she ever been to your

place? Her’s name Mona, Patricia, you remembering something

are, you’re looking at her now, (PICKTON SHAKES HEAD “NO”)

okay. Number five…

Page 55 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: Her lazy eye, I don’t know what you’re talking about.

SGT. Bill FORDY: She’s, she’s got a lazy eye, see her eye. Do you remember her? If

she’d ever been to your place, would you remember her because of

her eye, probably eh?

ROBERT PICKTON: I wouldn’t…

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay number six.

ROBERT PICKTON: She’s pretty, that’s all I gotta say.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah, she is pretty isn’t she. Number seven. (PICKTON SHAKES

HEAD “NO”) Number eight. Okay, still see it okay there?

ROBERT PICKTON: Hum.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Has number nine ever been to your house Rob? (PICKTON

SHAKES HEAD “NO”) What about number ten?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: There’s a lot of people look.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Well you know what, I only want you to tell me the ones that you’ve,

that have been there. Number eleven?

ROBERT PICKTON: Well I seen, I think I seen her (POINTING) around somewhere’s but

not at my place.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Number fourteen?

ROBERT PICKTON: I think I seen her around somewhere’s.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Where did you see her?

ROBERT PICKTON: Something but with, I don’t know if she, (INDECIPHERABLE) if she

is, isn’t she a black and blond hair there. But I thought she had

blond, so I thought she was blond, but maybe it’s not her. You know

there’s so many people that look like her.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah, well that’s interesting that you remember her though.

ROBERT PICKTON: Maybe I seen her around in Vancouver, if I’m right.

Page 56 of 252

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah. Has she ever been to your place?

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay. Number twelve ever been to your place? (PICKTON

SHAKES HEAD “NO”)

ROBERT PICKTON: She’s pretty too.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah, she is pretty. Has number thirteen ever been to your place?

No. Fourteen, you’ve seen her around but you don’t remember.

ROBERT PICKTON: There’s so many people…

SGT. Bill FORDY: Fifteen ever been in your place?

ROBERT PICKTON: Really none of them have, not that I know of.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Well let’s just take our time and walk through, so you’re a hundred

percent. Sixteen? (PICKTON SHAKES HEAD “NO”) Seventeen?

(PICKTON SHAKES HEAD “NO”) … has number eighteen ever

been to your place?

ROBERT PICKTON: She’s pretty too.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah. What about number nineteen, I’m sorry did you say eighteen

had been to your place or no?

ROBERT PICKTON: No. I said I think she’s pretty too, I says.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay. Has nineteen ever been to your place?

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. Bill FORDY: What about twenty?

ROBERT PICKTON: She’s really pretty.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Sure is.

ROBERT PICKTON: And these are all missing, they’re gone.

SGT. Bill FORDY: So she’s never been to your place, twenty? (PICKTON SHAKES

HEAD “NO”) How about twenty-one? Twenty-two? … twenty-three

ever been to your place?

Page 57 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: Was she ah, she’s a dark girl isn’t she?

SGT. Bill FORDY: No. No, she’s ah, looks sometimes black, sometime Spanish,

sometimes…

ROBERT PICKTON: Spanish, maybe Spanish.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Has she been to your place, I believe her name is Sarah.

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Remember her being there? (PICKTON SHAKES HEAD “NO”) …

Twenty-four? (PICKTON SHAKES HEAD “NO”) … Twenty-five?

Twenty-six? (PICKTON SHAKES HEAD “NO”)Twenty-seven?

ROBERT PICKTON: Twenty-six looks like some like Lynn but that’s…

SGT. Bill FORDY: Lynn who?

ROBERT PICKTON: That one that was staying at my place.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Wish it was her? (LAUGHING)

ROBERT PICKTON: (LAUGHING) Hum?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Do you wish it was her?

ROBERT PICKTON: No, it looks, looks something like her. I’m bad for remembering

faces if you don’t mind me asking. But I remember dates real clear.

But ah, there’s so many millions of people out there, they look so

much, so much alike and everything else you know, I mean

there’s…

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum. Twenty-seven, ever been to your place? (PICKTON

SHAKES HEAD “NO”) Cause I’ll tell you something, if you were the

person that was responsible for any of these girls missing of

course, you would remember them, let’s, you gotta agree with that.

That’s only common sense. What about twenty-seven?

ROBERT PICKTON: Which ones am I supposed to charged for, for murder if you don’t

mind me asking?

SGT. Bill FORDY: No I don’t mind at all (POINTS TO #4)

ROBERT PICKTON: That one. Who the hell is she?

SGT. Bill FORDY: We’re gonna talk about her … twenty-eight ever been to your

Page 58 of 252

place?

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Twenty-nine ever been to your place? (THROWS UP HIS HANDS)

(PICKTON SHRUGS)

ROBERT PICKTON: There’s so many people coming in and out of my place all the time

that it’s…

SGT. Bill FORDY: Thirty? (PICKTON SHAKES HEAD “NO”)

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know anybody with glasses.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay, think about her with no glasses on, just try to picture her with

no glasses. Has thirty ever been to your place? I’m sorry has she

ever been to your place?

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay, sorry I didn’t hear you. What about thirty-one, has she ever

been to your place? Take your time.

ROBERT PICKTON: (PICKTON SHAKES HEAD “NO”) No. She’s pretty.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum. She sure is. Thirty-two ever been to your place?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t think so. She’s (INDECIPHERABLE). But I guess ah, there’s

not much that we can say, I mean, myself we were, we were born in

the face there and we got (INDECIPHERABLE).

SGT. Bill FORDY: Thirty-three ever been to your place? (PICKTON SHAKES HEAD

“NO”) … did you say thirty-two hadn’t been there?

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Thirty-three?

ROBERT PICKTON: No. I, as far as that goes none of them ever have been?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay. Thirty-four … ever been to your place? (PICKTON SHAKES

HEAD “NO”) … Thirty-five ever been to your place?

ROBERT PICKTON: She’s pretty too.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah. Thirty-six … never been to your place? (PICKTON SHAKES

HEAD “NO”) Okay. Thirty-seven? … Thirty-eight?

Page 59 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: She’s pretty too.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Has she ever been to your place?

ROBERT PICKTON: No. (PICKTON SHAKES HEAD “NO”)

SGT. Bill FORDY: Thirty-nine. … Look closely at it, you’re sure? (PICKTON NODS

“YES”)

ROBERT PICKTON: She’s nice looking.

SGT. Bill FORDY: She ever been to your place? What about forty?

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Forty-one? Has forty-two ever been to your place?

ROBERT PICKTON: No. (PICKTON SHAKES HEAD “NO”)

SGT. Bill FORDY: Has forty-three ever been to your place?

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. Bill FORDY: You’re a hundred percent?

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Forty-four?

ROBERT PICKTON: No …

SGT. Bill FORDY: Forty-five? …

ROBERT PICKTON: Number forty-seven’s pretty too.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah, was forty-five at your place?

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Forty-six? Look carefully.

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Pardon?

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

Page 60 of 252

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay, forty-seven? Do you remember her at your place?

ROBERT PICKTON: No, but she’s pretty.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay just take a double check, make sure.

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Forty-eight.

ROBERT PICKTON: No. (YAWNING)

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay, you’ve just had a chance to look at all those pictures. Right?

Have any of these woman, can you give me some sort of

explanation as to why any of these women could have been at your

place. Why another witness might say they know for sure they were

at your place.

ROBERT PICKTON: ‘Aint no way. No way. (PICKTON SHAKES HEAD “NO”)

SGT. Bill FORDY: OK. Are you a hundred percent on that?

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: So you’re telling me that none of these women have ever been to

(12:58) your place. (PAUSE 20 SEC) do you want me to leave this with you

for a second, and you can wrack your brai, memory?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know none of them.

SGT. Bill FORDY: So you don’t know any of these girls? Have you ever had sex with

any of these girls?

ROBERT PICKTON: Did I? Not that I’m aware of. No.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Have any of these girls ever been alone in your car then, some

witness might just say that they were in your car. You were alone

with them.

ROBERT PICKTON: No. Cause I never had a car.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Or your truck, I’m sorry, a trans, a vehicle of transportation.

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Are you a hundred percent on that?

Page 61 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah. Hundred and one percent.

SGT. Bill FORDY: So, you’ve never met, you’ve never had any of these girls at your

house, you’ve never had sex with any of these girls. Yes or no.

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. Bill FORDY: And you have never …

ROBERT PICKTON: I had sex with one, the with a red head.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Which one?

ROBERT PICKTON: But ah, not, not there.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Who’s the red head you had sex with?

(1:00)

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, I haven’t seen her for awhile now. Um, I’ve never seen her for

awhile and , now what the hell’s her name? Roxanne, Roxanne.

SGT. Bill FORDY: She’s a prostitute?

ROBERT PICKTON: She’s a working girl.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay, working girl. Is she the only working girl you’ve ever been

with?

ROBERT PICKTON: No, there’s probably a couple, yeah, a couple others.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay, what are their names?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know. But I had Roxanne at my place. I took her over to

the palace. But I don’t know where she is, or where she went to

whatever.

SGT. Bill FORDY: So she’s disappeared?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know. But her names Roxanne.

SGT. Bill FORDY: When did you have her over to your place?

ROBERT PICKTON: Mmmm, a year ago.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Who introduced you to her?

Page 62 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: I met her, nice person, real nice person.

SGT. Bill FORDY: When you said you had sex with her, what do you mean, you had

sex with her?

ROBERT PICKTON: She was at my place there, go back and forth by bus to Vancouver.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum. (PUTS THE PICTURE BOARD AGAINST THE WALL)

So, when, when you say you have sex with her, you had sex with

her, what do you mean by that? What do you call sex? You know,

one thing I know is through my experience is that different people

have different definitions of sex. For some people sex is a girl

getting on top of a guy, and for some it’s a guy getting on top of a

girl, for some it’s you know, ah, oral sex using your mouth. When

you say you had sex with Roxanne, what do you mean by that?

ROBERT PICKTON: Well she was nice.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: Nice person, nice personality, nice everything.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: But I don’t know where she is now.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Maybe we gotta add her to the poster. Should she be on the

poster?

ROBERT PICKTON: Well she was at my place. But I don’t know where she is.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay. Um, so when you say you had, you had sex with her, right.

Are you talking about like putting ah, your, what do you call your

penis? Your dick, your cock, what do you call it?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know. I don’t know.

SGT. Bill FORDY: So you’re just taking about putting your, your dick inside her? In her

mouth or vagina, what, what did you have with her?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know what you’re referring to.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Well I guess I’m just wondering when you say sex, what are you,

what are you mean when you say that well I had sex with her?

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah. Ah, she gave me head.

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SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay, head. That’s one way.

ROBERT PICKTON: Stayed overnight. Took her back in the morning, took her to the bus

stop.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay, so she came back to your place.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. Bill FORDY: She gave you head, and then what happened?

ROBERT PICKTON: I took her back in the morning.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay, but after she gave you head what happened? Tell me about

that part.

ROBERT PICKTON: Nothing. Nothing to talk about I mean, it ah, nice. I know she

phoned, she try, tried to phone me back about three months ago

and she went to Abbottsford. Then I heard she was moving back to

Vancouver and …

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know whatever happened.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah, so what, what do you have, who’s your girlfriend now Willy

or ah, Rob?

ROBERT PICKTON: Who’s my girlfriend right now?

SGT. Bill FORDY: You got a girlfriend right now? I mean obviously not Dinah but…

ROBERT PICKTON: Ah, Nancy was my, she’s moved out.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum. So what kind of sex life did you guys have?

ROBERT PICKTON: Never.

SGT. Bill FORDY: You never had sex with her?

ROBERT PICKTON: Just helping her out.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Just helping her out. Okay. Um, who was the last girl you had sex

with?

ROBERT PICKTON: Probably Roxanne.

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SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum. So that was ah, you haven’t had sex then…

ROBERT PICKTON: About a year ago.

SGT. Bill FORDY: In a year. Ah,

ROBERT PICKTON: About a year ago.

SGT. Bill FORDY: And that was in…

ROBERT PICKTON: Maybe, maybe eight, eight, ten months ago.

SGT. Bill FORDY: She gave you head eight or ten months and you haven’t had sex

since? Okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: Nice person.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: She was going in for ah, she was going to go for treatment and she

had a dislocated back.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah. Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: I wore her out on the dance floor, I mean, she liked dancing,

everything else.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: She wanted me to dance, I don’t dance.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah, you’re not a big dancer are you?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t dance.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: I’m just a regular guy.

SGT. Bill FORDY: So when, when you have a your girlfriends over and you have sex

with them, what types of things do you do? Okay then, what’s your

favourite way of having sex?

(PAUSE 20 SEC)

ROBERT PICKTON: It doesn’t matter.

Page 65 of 252

SGT. Bill FORDY: Anyway in other words?

ROBERT PICKTON: I’m not fussy.

SGT. Bill FORDY: You’re not fussy. Alright.

ROBERT PICKTON: But I haven’t, like I say I haven’t had it for awhile.

SGT. Bill FORDY: You haven’t had sex in about how long?

ROBERT PICKTON: Just about a year.

SGT. Bill FORDY: About a year eh.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay. Um, it’s funny you know, when they do studies um, you

know, on people that have ah, you know, been identified as

having killed lots of people and hurt lots of people, they always look

back on their lives and something happened to them they were

younger in terms of a relationship or something, where they had,

things didn’t go well. Alright. You know, they look back and it’s one

thing that the experts can say. When you look back on your life, is

there a time where you know, tell me about your first sexual

relationship you had with a girl.

ROBERT PICKTON: (SHRUGS) Not much to say. Now when I was in school, a lot of

girls went to school with me and wasn’t interested.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum. So tell me about the first time you had sex.

ROBERT PICKTON: I can’t remember.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay, tell me about the first time you were with a prostitute.

ROBERT PICKTON: I didn’t even have sex with Connie neither. But the first girl was . . .

going out with.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: Don’t know. I got a good memory but I don’t know.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Well you want, you must remember the first prostitute. I mean

everybody does. It’s normal the first time you have a prostitute, to

remember it. It’s perfectly normal.

ROBERT PICKTON: I think about the first time was when I was with Lynn. Ah, the one

Page 66 of 252

that knifed me.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: Probably my first time. And even that time I didn’t know any,

anything I could only go to sleep. Kept on, we’re just heading home,

I was just gonna go home, and go to bed. But I had thirty-four

hundred dollars on me. But I think the first time was when I, when I

got knifed there. (YAWNING) (HEAD IN HIS HANDS)

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: (INDECIPHERABLE) I don’t know.

SGT. Bill FORDY: So the first time you were with a prostitute was ———- is that what

you’re telling me?

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, I guess so.

SGT. Bill FORDY: And the only other prostitute you’ve ever been with is Roxanne?

ROBERT PICKTON: Roxanne.

SGT. Bill FORDY: And …

ROBERT PICKTON: Roxanne.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: She’s nice, she’s a nice person.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah, and she’s missing?

ROBERT PICKTON: Is she missing?

SGT. Bill FORDY: I’m asking, I don’t know.

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Do you think she’s dead?

ROBERT PICKTON: I hope not.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: I haven’t seen her for awhile.

V(6)

Page 67 of 252

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: I hope not. I haven’t seen her for awhile. Like I seen her, like I says,

she phoned me about three months ago. Hi Willy, this is Roxanne.

(YAWNING)

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum. Okay um, so I guess what you’re telling me then ah,

Robert, or Rob is that none of these girls have ever been to your

place and you never had sex with any of these girls.

ROBERT PICKTON: No. But that doesn’t mean very much neither.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Well actually it means a lot. I’m gonna tell you something okay. The

police in this investigation are some of the best policemen in the

province, some of the policemen have the most integrity in the

province right. Alright. Nothing is gonna….

ROBERT PICKTON: (INDECIPHERABLE).

Dana LILLIES: Hi, how you doin’?

ROBERT PICKTON: Not too bad.

(13:13)

Dana LILLIES: Um, I just brought you guys some lunch.

ROBERT PICKTON: Oh thank you.

Dana LILLIES: You’ll be able to eat something right. Um, do you want a juice or a

pop?

ROBERT PICKTON: If possible.

Dana LILLIES: Coke, Orange juice.

SGT. Bill FORDY: I’ll have Coke too.

Dana LILLIES: (INDECIPHERABLE)

ROBERT PICKTON: It don’t matter, it don’t matter. Anything.

Dana LILLIES: You want Orange juice, Coke?

SGT. Bill FORDY: What you got?

Dana LILLIES: Orange juice. That too.

Page 68 of 252

SGT. Bill FORDY: I’ll have (INDECIPHERABLE). Thanks. You gotta go to the

bathroom or anything?

ROBERT PICKTON: What’s that?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Gotta go to the bathroom?

ROBERT PICKTON: No, I’m okay, I’m fine.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Thanks man. I just gotta double check and see what this says,

because I’ve got allergies. What you got?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know what I got.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Have a look. (LEAVES ROOM – PICKTON DRINKS ORANGE

JUICE AND PUTS LUNCH ASIDE – 2 MIN 25 SEC) You didn’t eat

it?

ROBERT PICKTON: No, no thanks.

SGT. Bill FORDY: You don’t want it. Do you mind if I eat mine?

ROBERT PICKTON: Go ahead, go ahead. I’m just a plain guy.

SGT. Bill FORDY: So am I, that’s why I’m taking all this garbage off, these vegetables.

(PAUSE 40 SEC) well what do you weigh?

ROBERT PICKTON: Hum?

SGT. Bill FORDY: How much you weigh?

ROBERT PICKTON: Hundred and seventy-five pounds.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Look like you’re in good shape. Not bad actually. Do you like pizza?

ROBERT PICKTON: Don’t like pizza.

SGT. Bill FORDY: No. Fattening?

ROBERT PICKTON: No, I like chicken or meat better than anything else.

(INDECIPHERABLE). Chicken.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Well I sure appre, appreciate your ah, being such a nice guy with

me. Well I treat people the way I want to be treated, better than

being an asshole to them you know. Where about’s were you in

Michigan, where else did you go? Detroit?

Page 69 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: Detroit is Michigan.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah, but Detroit City.

ROBERT PICKTON: Pontiac.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: Nice area around there.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah, I met my wife in Niagara Falls, New York which isn’t that far.

That whole area’s so populated now. Detroit, Buffalo, Toronto, it’s

concrete like for miles and miles and miles and miles. (PAUSE 15

SEC) what kind was yours.

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Oh, you didn’t know (INDECIPHERABLE). (WHISPERING) Mine is

ham. What do you think about those peppercorn porks and stuff

that Safe Way sells now? Sell them decorated up.

ROBERT PICKTON: It’s ah, pork chops and…

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah, I’m the same. (PAUSE 40 SEC) (FORDY EATING) Got go to

the can?

ROBERT PICKTON: No, I’m okay.

SGT. Bill FORDY: You’re sure you’re okay?

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah. Okay.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Alright. (PICKTON TAKES A DRINK)

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, I don’t know where Roxanne’s gone, I know about a month

ago they says ah, she’s in Vancouver there. Month, month and a

half ago.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: Well maybe two months ago. It was, it was around December I

think.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum. December this year?

ROBERT PICKTON: Last year.

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SGT. Bill FORDY: Or um, 2001. Gave you a blowjob or head.

ROBERT PICKTON: That was a long time ago.

SGT. Bill FORDY: (LAUGHING)

ROBERT PICKTON: She’s good, she’s real good, she’s real good.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Gives good head?

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum. She’s real good. Nice person. Very, very nice person.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum. So I’ll give you a couple of minutes you can eat that if

you like. Alright.

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s okay.

SGT. Bill FORDY: I’m just gonna go to the washroom, you gotta go?

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. Bill FORDY: I’ll be right back. (LEAVES ROOM 4 MIN 30 SEC) (FORDY REENTERS

ROOM. PICKTON MOVES ABRUPTLY) You didn’t eat.

How’s a guy to stay, work so hard without ever eatin’.

ROBERT PICKTON: Well I like to eat.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Just don’t eat now, this time of the day.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah. Yeah, I eat about eight.

SGT. Bill FORDY: We can box this up then, and if you want to eat it later, you can eat

later, how’s that. I’ll put it down there. What do you make of all that

media this has gotten?

ROBERT PICKTON: Out to lunch. Out to lunch.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Pretty spectacular eh? You’re like the Pope. (LAUGHING)

ROBERT PICKTON: Out to lunch.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum. There’s been ah, a lot of it around our office too. When

this first broke, you can imagine everybody, they were gettin’ calls

to everybody. Actually I got called into a meeting with some ah,

senior guys, that I don’t know how you do that. Um, are you with

me?

Page 71 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. Bill FORDY: When ah, some of us thought that it was at your place ah, was in

the media about what was at your house.

ROBERT PICKTON: At the house?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Do you remember that, at the trailer I mean, out at your property.

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know, I wasn’t there.

SGT. Bill FORDY: No, no, no. It was in the media. No, I didn’t mean you were there,

sorry, you misunderstood me. And there was stuff in the papers, on

the radio.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, you can’t go by what it says on paper.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Well I know that. Tell me about that.

ROBERT PICKTON: People put anything in there, (INDECIPHERABLE) pay some

money, what are reasons for ah, get some money for drugs and

they’ll put anything, any kind of story in there.

SGT. Bill FORDY: What do you mean? About the inhaler you mean.

ROBERT PICKTON: Well, I don’t know if it is about the inhaler. If it is about the inhaler

or anything I don’t know anything about this here. But anyways over

and above I mean.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Mmm.

ROBERT PICKTON: They’ll put anything in the paper. Like ah, when Dinah went

missing.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: Big thing in the paper, heard about missing.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Dinah’s not missing.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, I know that.

SGT. Bill FORDY: I know that too. That’s pretty spectacular though wasn’t it? One of

the ah, …

ROBERT PICKTON: I know Cheryl.

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SGT. Bill FORDY: Hum?

ROBERT PICKTON: I know Cheryl.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Cheryl?

ROBERT PICKTON: The one that was in the paper there.

SGT. Bill FORDY: I’m sorry, I’m confused.

ROBERT PICKTON: The one that was in the paper, the one that was worried about her.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Oh, oh, worried about Dinah you mean.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, I’ve known Cheryl for a lot of years.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: I know her for a long, long time.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: I know her mom.

SGT. Bill FORDY: How do you know her?

ROBERT PICKTON: Through friends.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Have you ever had sex with her?

ROBERT PICKTON: No. Through friends.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: I knew her mom.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah. So you know the whole family. How long you been with

Dinah?

ROBERT PICKTON: Seven years, eight years.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah. Consider one, her one of your best friends?

ROBERT PICKTON: Nice person. Nice person.

(13:30)

Page 73 of 252

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: Nice person.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: Really never had sex with her.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Pardon me?

ROBERT PICKTON: I never had sex with her.

SGT. Bill FORDY: You’ve never had sex with her, for seven years. Really. Wow.

ROBERT PICKTON: You don’t believe me, you can ask her.

SGT. Bill FORDY: No, no I mean I don’t, I’m not gonna say I think you’re lying to me. It

just seems that’s an awful long time to be with a girl and never have

sex.

ROBERT PICKTON: I might help people out.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah. Well that’s one thing that, (OVER TALKING)

ROBERT PICKTON: I try, I try to help people out.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Try to help people out and stuff. What else you doin’ for money?

ROBERT PICKTON: Who me?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: I just want to get doin’ pigs.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Pigs. What else?

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s it.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Now your brother said in the paper something about ah, buying

cars or something.

ROBERT PICKTON: I buy cars from the Vancouver Police Department.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Tell me about that.

ROBERT PICKTON: Well I buy all the, all the, all the, the vehicles from the Vancouver

Page 74 of 252

Police.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: I got a contract there. I get anywhere up to about seventy a year.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Seventy. That’s one a week.

ROBERT PICKTON: Seventy a year.

SGT. Bill FORDY: More than one a week. Yeah. How’d you ever get that contract?

ROBERT PICKTON: I had that contract for about four years. For about three years I

guess, four years.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: About three or four years.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah, so what’s the deal, you tow the vehicles for them or?

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Just buy them?

ROBERT PICKTON: Just buy the veh… just buy the ones that are up for salvage, up for

scrap.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: And you buy it from other auctions and here and there, Canada

Auctions, and Able Auctions and Ross Auctions and ship ‘em out

and just peel off whatever you don’t want off of them, ship ‘em out

to the bone yard and the rest goes to I just salvage whatever I can,

the alternators, starters, this, that, little stuff. Maybe a good motor. If

it’s a half decent vehicle, then I, then I bring it over to my place

there, strip it out, pull the motor out. Sell the motor.

SGT. Bill FORDY: To bad you don’t, can’t refund lottery tickets or anything in them

and…

ROBERT PICKTON: Well one time there, I got a vehicle there, it had six hundred

dollars in it.

SGT. Bill FORDY: That’s all right, that’s like winning the lottery.

ROBERT PICKTON: But that’s not mine.

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SGT. Bill FORDY: It’s like winning the lottery.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, but it’s not mine.

SGT. Bill FORDY: What did you do with the money?

ROBERT PICKTON: No, it’s not mine, I mean myself, I mean, even if I can find money in

there, it’s not mine, I can’t take it. It’s not mine to have.

SGT. Bill FORDY: So what did you do with that six hundred bucks then?

ROBERT PICKTON: It went back to the guy who had the, who had the vehicle.

SGT. Bill FORDY: So whenever you find something in the vehicle then you always

take it back to the owners?

ROBERT PICKTON: Usually if I can find ‘em, because it’s not really mine to have. I don’t,

I don’t, I don’t steal from anybody, I don’t have to, me myself, I try to

help people out. Like people steal from me right, left, and center

and I try to help and knife’s in the back.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: But now I’ll still help up today.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Well you know what, it’s good to hear that you’re like that Rob.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah. Well the only thing is, if I had to do the whole thing over

again, I’ll try and help. Even if I get knifed in the back again.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: I’ll still try to help.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah. So when you take stuff back to these owner’s do they ever

say thanks or do they just expect you to do that because the cops

had the car or how does that work?

ROBERT PICKTON: No. No, no, no, no, no. The vehicle’s from the Vancouver Police, I

mean whatever becomes of them, it doesn’t matter it’s already been

checked out. I got ah, ah, one truck I got out of from Vancouver

Police Department, it was, it had the seat folded in, had a big ax in

there, blood, blood all over the ax. I don’t know if the police ever did

find that ax, if, they try and find the weapon on that one. But I

opened the seat up and there’s a, there’s a…

Page 76 of 252

SGT. Bill FORDY: Is it still there?

ROBERT PICKTON: No it’s gone now. Big single bladed axe, blood all over it.

SGT. Bill FORDY: I think they found one out at your place.

ROBERT PICKTON: An axe?

SGT. Bill FORDY: I think so, yeah, maybe they found it.

ROBERT PICKTON: Anyway, the thing is, that came out so ah, there, if, if, if that’s the

one then, they found it, then I don’t know. It was at my place, it was

at the house, front house.

SGT. Bill FORDY: No, I thought it was in the workshop. Maybe I’m, maybe I was

wrong, maybe it’s a different one.

ROBERT PICKTON: All I know there’s supposed to be ah, I know it’s a single bladed axe

(13:35) and it had blood, blood all over it. It came out of ah, 1989 Chev

Astro. Astro Mini Van.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: And the back seat was folded together and it was laying right in

there.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: But that’s ah, I’m going back about a year and two, almost two and

a half, three years ago.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: Two years, two and half years ago. It had blood all over the back,

ah, the back rests of the seats and everything else. Now whatever’s

took place I don’t have a clue. But life goes on. Well, well when I

took anything from the Vancouver Police Department they don’t,

well they said we don’t want anything back, we don’t want nothing.

So just take everything, bring everything over and, and I sold the

other one for two or three hundred bucks or whatever else.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Now is it your practice um, to search those vehicles when you get

them right away, to see if they have mistaken, mistakenly left or left

Page 77 of 252

anything?

ROBERT PICKTON: I, I bring so many vehicles in, I bring so much in. I go through about

a hundred and fifty vehicles a year. I haven’t got the time of day to

worry about one needle or one of this or one of that.

SGT. Bill FORDY: One what? You say needle?

ROBERT PICKTON: (TAKES A DRINK) One needle or…

SGT. Bill FORDY: Needle?

ROBERT PICKTON: Needles.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Oh, needle.

ROBERT PICKTON: Needles or anything else or whatever you know what I mean. I look

at the radio or look at this or look at that and look at the side of, look

at the vehicle shape or whatever. If I can use the front end, if I can

use this part or that part or whatever.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Did you ever go through the trunks or the glove boxes?

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, there’s everything in them. Yeah, everything in them.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Like what?

ROBERT PICKTON: Anything you want to get. You won’t believe what you find in those

things. You find this, you find that, inhalers, so on so forth. Fuck it’s

outrageous. Outrageous. Mostly bras, tops, this, that, clothes,

people sleeping in them, but now that they got tighter security at

the, at the compound now. Now they got security there twenty-four

hour a day.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: Before they never had that. They used to take those stereos out,

they’d take this out, take that out. And I just got a hold, just got off

the shelves or left, maybe a good motor.

SGT. Bill FORDY: So when you find that stuff, is it normal for you to ah, put it in bags

and send it to people and stuff?

ROBERT PICKTON: No. I never bother me myself, if you bothered with every, you don’t

get any work done.

SGT. Bill FORDY: God you’d be doin’ it all day I guess eh?

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ROBERT PICKTON: Ah fuck, I mean, I, I bring two to three to four a day in.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Oh, wow.

ROBERT PICKTON: I haven’t got the time of day to bother with it.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah, no, I see what you mean.

ROBERT PICKTON: Myself I mean it’s ah, clothes everything else in it, everything stays

right in the vehicle, I just, I just take out whatever I, if I see a good

motor or see this or see that, that’s it, that’s all I take out.

SGT. Bill FORDY: So you leave everything in the vehicle.

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t take anything out.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Oh, okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t take anything out.

SGT. Bill FORDY: So you never take anything into your shop?

ROBERT PICKTON: Ah, if I see something in value I do.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Like what?

ROBERT PICKTON: Well if I see tools or see that or see that, see this or see that,

anything that is worth value, I put to one side. Yes I do.

SGT. Bill FORDY: So everything else you just leave in the car.

ROBERT PICKTON: It, I mean ah, I don’t have the time of day to play with everything.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah, I understand, no. No I was just…especially coming that, that

quantity coming in and coming out and you know, if you’re gonna, if

you’re doin’ three or four a day….

ROBERT PICKTON: I see so much…

SGT. Bill FORDY: You’re doin’ more cars than you are pigs for Christ’s sake.

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. Bill FORDY: (LAUGHING) I’m just kiddin’.

ROBERT PICKTON: I go through a lot of scrap.

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SGT. Bill FORDY: Mmm. So you said you, you’d find bras, is that what you said, bras

and clothes?

ROBERT PICKTON: Clothes of every, of every sort, of every sort. You name it, it was all

there. Everything’s there.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Like what?

ROBERT PICKTON: Well clothes, pants, this, that, people live in the cars everything

else. And ah, I think a lot of it’s being picked up and they’re being

brought over and just you know, some place for them to shack out

or whatever. Yeah. Now over and above even the last party that

brought their clothes over to me, they brought their clothes over to

me and she was staying in a van, in a, in a car or van. No a trailer,

no a van, a van behind the Cobalt. and I says, I just threw all the, all

her stuff on the bed there, she’s supposed to be coming back the

next day and do the washing and drying. Cause all her clothes and

everything else. I don’t know whatever happened to her. I don’t

know whatever happened to her.

SGT. Bill FORDY: What’s her name?

ROBERT PICKTON: French girl. She’s a french girl. All her clothes, everything else is

ah, still on the bed. And all I know that ah, that’s all hers.

SGT. Bill FORDY: What you said, you said something about the hotel or something.

ROBERT PICKTON: Behind the Cobalt.

SGT. Bill FORDY: What about it?

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s where she, that’s where she was staying in the van behind

the Cobalt. Ah, three or four or five vehicles back there, staying

back there.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Oh, she came over and told you that.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah. That’s where she was staying. Another person was staying

on the, behind the ah, underneath the Geogia viaduct.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Who was that?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know, she’s probably still there.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Oh, so not a girl that’s on the poster here?

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ROBERT PICKTON: No, not that I, I don’t know. I can’t tell one from another, there’s so

many of ‘em, back and forth.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Well I’ll tell you what though, If you, if you were the guy that killed

all fifty of those girls you’d remember them. So I’ll tell what, you

know what, one thing I’ll say is that I’ve talked to a lot of killers.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. Bill FORDY: And you do remember those heightened things cause they’re

important things in your life. So if that was the case, then you would

have remembered them.

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t, believe me I don’t.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Unless you’re in an absolute frenzy or something.

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t remember any one of these really I don’t, honestly. I’m telling

you the honest truth.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Well that’s all I want, is I want you to tell me the truth. I appreciate

that.

ROBERT PICKTON: I’m telling the honest truth. I am telling you that. And ah, anything

about this inhaler and everything else I don’t know nothing about

this …

SGT. Bill FORDY: Tell me about that. Tell me what you know.

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t, I don’t know nothing about it, really I don’t, I honestly, I

don’t. My lawyer told me about that, when, when I was at the

lawyer’s office. And I says if it came from that big black bag, that

was in Nancy’s room, that girl that was staying in the van brought

it over to me. And Dinah will straighten that up for you. She knows

all about it. That’s all I do know, cause Dinah knows her. And I

never had sex with her. She stayed over one night and I, I gave her

a hundred dollar bill and I never had sex with her. And ah,

everything’s, everything’s in that ah, black bag came from her. It’s a

big long bag with everything in it and everything else. Now ah,

anymore than that I mean a lot of this stuff is ah, I don’t know. I got

people coming in and out of my place like you wouldn’t believe.

There’s more people coming in and out of my place than Cod Liver

pills. Now my place is, you won’t believe how many people even,

even after hours. If you don’t believe me you can talk to Nancy. She

was staying there for almost five months. She was scared, she says

Willy ah, don’t go outside or anything else because she says, she’s

terrified, even, even when I worked in the barn at night.

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SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: She says I want, I can’t go to bed til, til you come in. I phoned the

paramedics up on Lynn, when she was staying at my place. She

ah, she was overdosed everything else. Well I was going to kill her,

why didn’t, why didn’t, why didn’t, why did I phone the paramedics

up, why do you bring the, bring the police department and

everything else in there. Do I look like a murderer? The innocent

people go to jail too, believe me, they can, they can be set up,

people out there will set anybody up for anything. And I’m not trying

to hide anything, I’m not trying to get away from anything but I’m

telling you the honest truth. You can take me as I am, you can take

me any way ah, whatever. I don’t know, I mean I can’t read

anybody else’s mind. I’m myself and the problem is I’m sorry about

ah living, I’m sorry about the way I am, but I’ll still be out there to

help the next person when they need help. And I don’t care about

this party, or that party if they need a hand I will help and I hope to

get the same thing in return. Now any more than that, I can’t help

you. There is quite a few people know about my gun, I never kept

anything, any, anything for a secret. I kept open minded and I kept

everything to myse, ah, everything to everything.

SGT. Bill FORDY: You’re Hilti gun.

ROBERT PICKTON: No, no. Everything. Even my .22, everything else. I never kept any

secrets.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Tell me about your .22.

ROBERT PICKTON: Well I had a little .22, I shouldn’t be talkin’ because my, my lawyer’s

not here.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Mmm, it’s up to you.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, cause I shouldn’t be, I really shouldn’t be. But the problem is

I mean, I’m open and like I says, I never kept any secrets, I told

everybody about everything. Dave would come over, oh, yeah, I got

one, I got a .22 and so on and so forth and the, and it’s also, I got

this and I got that, yeah. Only thing is ah, sometimes I use the .22, I

shouldn’t be talkin’ but I’ll tell you this ah, I use the .22, sometimes I

do big, big boars. Big boars, I mean my Hilti thing, my pin driver

goes in that far, the head is very, very solid, very heavy. Very, very

big boned, sometimes you have to use three or four or five shots to

even bring ‘em down.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Hum.

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ROBERT PICKTON: That’s heavy, they’re, they’re…

SGT. Bill FORDY: That would be a lot of work, wouldn’t it.

ROBERT PICKTON: Oh yeah, couldn’t do that. Then they make a lot noise.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: So the problem is I put plastic around it, just to quietin’ the

noise down a little bit, and I really, mean big pigs.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: And that’s why, and then I figure I, I put this here little plastic thing

over the top of it, over the top but you probably know about that too

right. Anyways I put that thing over the top of it to quiet it down, but

I never used it.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Ah, so you just lost me. Say that again. We were talking about your

Hilti gun.

ROBERT PICKTON: No. Talking about a .22.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay. Alright, sorry.

ROBERT PICKTON: But they are both .22 is anyways is .22 calibre and the Hilti and the

.22 on the other.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah. Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: But I shouldn’t be talking about that. That’s, that’s for the lawyer.

But anyways like I says, you could take as I am, you and take me

any which way you want, you could drag me up and down the road

here and that still doesn’t make me remember anything, I

remember dates, I remember this, I remember that, remember

faces or whatever but I don’t remember any of these people really.

Really, honestly I don’t. Like you can link me up with them, I’m

charged, I’m you can do whatever you want to do with me, that still

doesn’t make me a murderer, just because but I don’t know ‘em

and as you guys can link whatever onto me I can’t help that,

because that’s your privilege. I got nailed to the cross, I’m just a

plain little farm boy, I’m just myself but again I don’t do, I wouldn’t

change very much. If I had to do the whole thing over again, I’m

myself. I’m sorry, I’m sorry for living. And ah, you know, if I can, I’ll

take my life for any one of those people (POINTS TO PICTURE

BOARD) just to, (CRYING) just to have them alive. So…sorry.

Page 83 of 252

SGT. Bill FORDY: Can I sha, just shake my hand okay. I want to make a deal with you

here right now okay. It’s okay Rob, don’t, don’t apologize for

anything, don’t apologize for who you are okay. We just shook

hands alright. We’re gonna make a deal, you and I. Okay.

(STANDS UP)

ROBERT PICKTON: (OVER TALKING) I’m sorry. I’m sorry, I’m sorry.

SGT. Bill FORDY: You don’t need to apologize to me ever again. Alright because I

accept you for who you are, I don’t want you to change anything,

who you are. We’re gonna make a deal, you and I, right now.

ROBERT PICKTON: I’m really sorry, I mean I can’t help you any more than that. But I

can, if I take my life for any one of those people, I would do so.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Thank you for telling me that Rob.

ROBERT PICKTON: Any one of them, just so that…

(PAUSE 10 SEC – FORDY STANDING WRITING ON BOARD)

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay, I’m gonna tell you something about myself okay. I’m an

honest guy, I have a lot of integrity and when I give somebody my

word I mean it with all my heart okay. I’m gonna swear on my kids

head here today, I promise two things alright. I’ll promise to treat

you well and with respect. (SHAKES HANDS) I’ll promise you that

okay. I promise to tell the truth, shake my hand on that too okay.

(SHAKES HANDS) Sign my name right here. Bill FORDY. Rob I

want you to stand up, stand up right now for me please. I want you

to make me the same promise that I just made you. (PICKTON

WRITES) Okay, you promise to treat me well and with respect and

you promise to tell the truth. Thank you Rob. (SHAKES HANDS)

Have a seat. Rob I told you that this was a massive investigation

okay. (OVER TALKING) I just want you to listen to me for one

second okay. Rob listen to me for one second okay. I told you

earlier that this is a massive investigation.

ROBERT PICKTON: I know that.

SGT. Bill FORDY: (STANDING) There are some of the best policemen in the province

working on this investigation. Some of the sharpest minds are

involved in this investigation okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. Bill FORDY: I promised you right now I will treat you with respect and I promise

Page 84 of 252

you that I will tell you the truth here today. Robert I’m telling you

right now you did kill some of these girls. I’m telling you right now

you took them away from their families and I’m gonna go over some

of that Robert. Okay, I want you to listen to me.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum. (HEAD ON HAND)

SGT. Bill FORDY: And I want you to know that I speak from my heart okay. I

want to understand you here today, I’m not here for one second not

liking you or holding any disdain for you. Okay, but know that I

know the truth. Alright I’m speaking to you from today from the

heart.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. Bill FORDY: I’m not gonna lie to you, I’m not gonna mislead you, and I don’t

want you to say anything for a couple of minutes okay.

ROBERT PICKTON Okay.

SGT. Bill FORDY: I want you think about what I have to say. (STANDS) Because this

investigation is built like a house, it’s a house okay. Remember we

talked about Helen COOK. A house is built with a foundation Rob,

and in that foundation, around that foundation are building blocks.

(SITTING) Alright and the building blocks of this investigation is

DNA. The same DNA that put Peter Van OSSELAER in jail for

twenty-five years is gonna put you in jail okay. You’re, you’re gonna

get convicted on these murders, alright. There’s no disputing that

anymore. The only thing that I’m here to do though if to try to

understand you and try to understand why Rob. I don’t sit here

holding any ill feelings towards you, or feeling, or holding anything

against you. Okay, I don’t, I don’t sit here and hate you and that’s

one of the reasons I’m here today is because I have the ability to, to

get beyond the obvious.

ROBERT PICKTON: I know that, I told you that already. (FORDY STANDING)

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay. So what I’m gonna do is I’m gonna go over some of this

evidence with you. Right now, because girl number four here, Mona

WILSON, was at your house.

ROBERT PICKTON: That I don’t know.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Hear me out please. I know, I already know the answer and I told

you I’d give you my word, I’m not gonna lie to you, I’m here on

video I give my word in front of everybody. I’m not gonna lie to you.

But I’m gonna show you right now, that you’re going to jail. Okay

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and you’re gonna go to jail for a long time. And that decision

to speak or not to speak is yours alone. Right, nobody can make

you say anything you don’t want to say Rob and I’m certainly not

gonna do that to you. I’m gonna treat you with respect and dignity,

just like I gave you my word right here. I promise to treat you well

and with respect and I promise to tell the truth. You and I both

made that deal right now so I don’t want you to say anything to me

right now okay. Cause when you talk to me I want it to be the truth.

Alright. This girl here Mona WILSON has been at your place.

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know.

SGT. Bill FORDY: She has been. Okay. I know that, everybody in this building knows

that because there is conclusive evidence. I’m not talking Rob,

about one drop or two drops of DNA, that put Peter Van

OSSELAER in jail. I’m talking about huge amounts of DNA. I’m

talking about blood letting, I’m talking about transfer DNA, I’m

talking about passive drops. Irresputible, indisputable, forensic

evidence, one in forty-two million chance, do you know how many

people there are in the world. Five or six billion. Her DNA match

comes back one in forty-two trillion. You’re done, okay. Rob you’re

done on this and I’ve spent some time here with you today, and you

know what, I don’t see you as a monster. I don’t see you as the kind

of guy that would go out and hurt innocent little kids…

ROBERT PICKTON: I wouldn’t. I don’t.

SGT. Bill FORDY: And if I thought for one second that you were that kind of person

Rob I wouldn’t waste one second of my time with you, I wouldn’t sit

here, I wouldn’t care. But I don’t see you as that kind of person, I

saw the way that you talked about your mother, you know, how

much you love your mother and I understand that because I love

my mother the same way that you love your mother. And I wish my

mother was still with me (OVERTALKING) at my side everyday.

ROBERT PICKTON: I wish she was here too.

SGT. Bill FORDY: And if your mother was still alive and was beside you Rob you

probably wouldn’t be in this chair right now, dealing with these

issues you’ve have to deal with because all of your problems

started after your mom died. That’s when you started killing people.

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Not before hand. You telling me you killed someone before your

mom died? (PICKTON SHAKING HEAD “NO”) Okay Rob, because

we both know that you did okay. So what I want you to do is just

listen to me, remember you told me you were gonna tell me the

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truth. I don’t want you to say any lies to me, I don’t want you to say

anything that’s not the truth. Okay. Because and you know what, I

understand, let me tell you something else Rob, I understand you,

your, your need to lie to me right now, because you’re scared. You

know, deep down inside your gut you don’t know what’s gonna

happen. You know, you don’t know what’s gonna happen Monday.

All you know right now is yes, you are a big media celebrity.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, no kidding.

SGT. Bill FORDY: You are bigger than the Pope, you’re bigger than Princess Diana,

you’re just like fuckin’ Bin Laden. You know you’re on the front page

of every paper in the country today. Every one.

ROBERT PICKTON: In the paper?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Everybody knows who you are right now.

ROBERT PICKTON: In the paper today? They put me in the paper.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Absolutely. This is done, you are over, okay. Only one thing left

Rob, that is for me to decide what kind of person you are because

there is irrefutable DNA evidence that you are responsible for taking

these girls.

ROBERT PICKTON: You, mean I’m in the paper too, today?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah. And Rob you know what, when we look at our lives, we look

at the map that’s laid out for us, cause there is a map for each of us

right. Everything that happens to us Rob, happens for a reason.

There’s a reason that you were on that farm, that you were raised

the way that you were, that your dad was a hard worker, that your

mom was a hard worker, that your sister did what she did to you.

ROBERT PICKTON: My sister didn’t do anything to me.

SGT. Bill FORDY: She didn’t do anything, that’s right, you’re exactly right.

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. Bill FORDY: She left the farm.

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Hear me out.

ROBERT PICKTON: She didn’t leave the farm.

Page 87 of 252

SGT. Bill FORDY: Hear me out for a second, she went away to school.

ROBERT PICKTON: She was going to school.

SGT. Bill FORDY: I’m not here to talk about her anyway. Rob I’m here to understand

you. And we look back on our lives, and we start to, to look at why

we are the way we are, you will look back and you will ask yourself

gees I wonder why that happened. Why did my mom die, why did I

have the relationship that I had with her. Why did Connie not come

up and marry me? When all I wanted was I wanted her love, and

wanted her to be by my side.

ROBERT PICKTON: No, no, not necessarily.

SGT. Bill FORDY: That’s what you wanted.

ROBERT PICKTON: No, no I says I real, I miss her, still miss her.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah, absolutely, you know what and that’s normal. And you

probably still miss your mom.

ROBERT PICKTON: I miss her a little bit yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: And that’s normal. And if your mom was here, and if your mom was

still alive, Rob, you probably wouldn’t be in this situation that you’re

in right now. And you said a number of times, if you could go back

and change things…

ROBERT PICKTON: If I could back, I wouldn’t change very much.

SGT. Bill FORDY: You wouldn’t change very much. You know what that tells me?

That deep down inside you have a good side to you.

ROBERT PICKTON: I wouldn’t change much, I mean I my, myself.

SGT. Bill FORDY: And you are who you are and that you still like yourself. Because

Rob, hard workers, people that get up every morning and work hard

like you and I…

ROBERT PICKTON: Well I’m in the papers today.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yes you are. Do you know why you’re in the paper? Because you’re

done. It’s all over. It’s all over. (PAUSE 9 SEC) And it’s over

because all those pieces of that puzzle, all the things that you need

to build a case, to build a house are in place. (PAUSE 30 SEC)

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ROBERT PICKTON: I, I don’t think any of those girls been to my place.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Rob you know what, I don’t want you to say that anymore okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: Okay.

SGT. Bill FORDY: I want you to tell me the truth as a man, okay. And you know what,

if you, if you choose not to talk to me then that’s okay but I’d rather

you not talk to me than tell me any lies okay. I prefer that please,

out of respect for me and, you know, we shook on it man to man.

And ah, I’m a man of my word and I would like you to be a man of

your word. Now one of the things that the investigators have done

in this investigation and I told you about the blood spatter people

and how the best um, investigators in the province and in the

country are out there. They’re at your place okay and they are

gathering evidence. Alright, they’re gathering evidence from in your

(14:03) motor home, or your mobile home, from in the trailers, from in the

slaughterhouse, from the workshops, from everywhere okay.

They’re bringing equipment in to dig into the ground, they’re gonna

be there for a year. Okay, they’re gonna get everything, every

buried animal, every buried human, every buried piece of

equipment that’s in that yard is gonna be discovered. Okay, you

know that they’re spending a million dollars a month just digging.

This is the biggest investigation, crime scene investigation in the

history of Canada. They’re not gonna stop spending money, they

will resolve this. This is a machine, this is a snowball that will not

stop. Alright and one of the things they’ve done is they’ve done

DNA. They’ve had people come in and look at bloodstains and

analyze them, and look at them and they look at the patterns and

they can basically write a story, based on what they see. It’s

irrefutable, indisputable forensic evidence. Now if we were talkin’

about, just hear me out, if we were talking about one isolated thing,

you know what then, that wouldn’t matter. But when you’ve got a

freight train of evidence coming down the track that’s different Rob.

And this is a freight train mister, this is a super freight train. And that

evidence is getting bigger and bigger and bigger, and that train’s

only been going for two weeks, mister. A year from now I can’t

imagine it’s unbelievable how much evidence there’s gonna be.

Alright this, this train right now is on the, is on the, the, the start of

the assent down the tracks and there’s already an abundance of

evidence. Enough that’s gonna convict you and keep you in jail for

a long time. I’m gonna go over some of that, the only thing that

matters now, is what kind of person is ROBERT PICKTON. Cause

everybody’s gonna know what you did, just matters what kind of

person are you know. And I can’t say what kind of person you are,

I, I got a feeling that I think you’re a good person cause I can see it

in your eyes, and see you look me in the eyes and I think you are a

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good person that really does want to help and I thank you for that.

Cause if I thought you were the kind of guy that was out hurting

innocent little kids, abducting kids, like Clifford OLSON, that would

be different my friend. And I hope in my heart of hearts that you’re

not that person that’s abducted all those other little kids from the ah,

skids too, from the east end too. Cause I hope that’s not the case

and if that is the case then I’m wasting my time with you and I’m

wrong about you and I really hope Rob, that’s not the case.

ROBERT PICKTON: Little kids, what do you mean little kids.

SGT. Bill FORDY: I hope you’re not the kind, the guy that’s been taking some of those

other little kids that the media.

ROBERT PICKTON: Me?

SGT. Bill FORDY: …hasn’t got a hold of that. I hope that is not the case.

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know what that’s all about, but I found, what, what you got

anyways.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Well what do I got here, you want me to show you?

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: I’ll show you, okay. This is a forensic laboratory report Rob. You

know what, let me, let me do it better, let me get you some pictures

okay. Cause I want to make sure …that you understand exactly

what I’m talking about. This is very, very important. Now I talked to

you about DNA right. (FORDY OPENS BLUE BINDER) Do you

know how, how DNA transfers, the different ways that DNA

transfers? Okay there’s blood right, semen, saliva, skin cells,

transfers, there’s all different ways. Like when you and I shake

hands your DNA is on my hand. Okay. Do you understand that?

While the investigators have been out at your property okay. They

called in Jack MELLIS, Jack is an expert in blood spatter analysis,

he’s the best in the province. He’s the man, he goes around

internationally and lectures okay. He’s in your Dodge motor home..

ROBERT PICKTON: Dodge motor home?

SGT. Bill FORDY: The Dodge, the motor home, whatever the heck you want to call it.

That’ll be a Dodge motor home, that’s what it’s called. He’s in there

okay, and he’s done a forensic examination…

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

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SGT. Bill FORDY: Let me turn around (FORDY MOVES RIGHT BESIDE PICKTON)

here and explain this, of the motor home. Alright. Do you remember

this, see the, see the two beds (INDECIPHERABLE) you cant’ see

the other one there, do you see the line? See it okay?

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Alright. See you come in here and you go down the hallway and

there’s two beds at the end. What we’ve done Rob is we’ve looked

at that mattress okay. They took that mattress, they’ve analyzed it,

see anything on there?

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. Bill FORDY: What do you see, what do you see here?

ROBERT PICKTON: A bunch of drawings.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay. What are the drawings around? I mean it looks like a little

dog, it looks like a poodle actually.

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Actually what it is, is bloodstains. You know, and it’s human blood.

Lots of it, it’s called blood letting. Remember we talked earlier about

ah, special lighting for different situations that the police use. We

talked about the for, the special lights it’s the same mattress under

different light.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. Bill FORDY: This mattress is in your Dodge, in your motor home, camper

whatever the heck you want to call it. Now some of the guys joke

around, call it a poodle but it’s not, it’s actually it’s kinda sad and

this is Mona WILSON’s blood.

ROBERT PICKTON: So what’s that to do with me?

SGT. Bill FORDY: I’ll explain that to you. Let me explain that to you okay. So Mona’s

blood, huge blood pooling is on this mattress. Alright. The experts

say that that would have rendered her unconscious, the amount of

blood pooling there. Cause they’re experts okay, I’m certainly not

an expert and neither are you, but I’m, I’m telling you what the

experts say. The most, this is the most respected guy in the

province. Alright. He’s the, the most respected guy in the province

and that’s his expert opinion. This is the wall beside, now you lift the

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mattress up and this is the wall. Alright. See this? This is called

blood spatter alright, that’s from ah, I’ll, I’ll read you his report. But

that’s from impact. Like if I was to ah, a hit you ah, with a knife,

remember when, when ——— stabbed you, that blood would squirt

off. So there’d be blood squirting all over the place. Alright, that’s

what that is. This, this is called transfer blood. Different kind of

blood, different pattern, this is still Mona’s blood. So she’s, she’s

been ah, this is where she’s been done. This is the corner, zone C

still, here’s the date it was seized. What they’ve done here though

is they’ve taken the mattress out because that’s crucial evidence

right. Just like Peter Van OSSELAER got convicted on. Want to

know what Peter Van OSSELAER looked like, this. Peter Van

OSSELAER got twenty-five years on that. Alright. Continuation right

around the side here, see here, here’s the line actually, you can see

where the mattress was lifted from. Here’s the other end, see the

line here. See the blood spatter. (PAUSE 18 SEC) Plastic

underneath, garbage bags. This is the floor, blood patterns taken.

This is the floor again, see what they do Rob, is they take a swab,

roll it and get the blood.

ROBERT PICKTON: But why, what has that got to do with me?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Hear me out, I’m gonna explain it to you. Her blood is everywhere

at your place right, she’s never been to your place. You told me

that. This is the floor again, spatter, now trust me, this is not from a

bloody nose. Okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: No, I agree, I agree with that.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Cupboards, … this is blood from all over the crime scene, this is

where she was killed or rendered unconscious anyway. Here’s the

most interesting thing, I’ll just skip ahead. See what she’s dragged

along the, at the place.

ROBERT PICKTON: What’s that?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Blood transfer. Or either that or someone had a lot of blood on them

when they went by. So then you either had blood on you or pulled

her by. Same thing here. This is a crime scene’s dream come true,

this kind of blood letting. And I told you how Peter Van OSSELAER

got convicted. This is ten times as much DNA as Peter ever had.

(FORDY FLIPPING PAGES) Table, table again, counter, counter,

this is the part I want to show you. See again, the underside of the

mattress, the plastic gone, it’s funny that’s how ——— described

the place where you had sex with her too.

ROBERT PICKTON: What?

V(6)

V(6)

Page 92 of 252

SGT. Bill FORDY: Before you guys, before you guys had the stabbing.

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. Bill FORDY: I’m just telling you that’s how she described it. I, I want you to know

Rob that like I’m just presenting this to you. Okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Like you know, the stuff that I say about what ——— said things

like that, that’s their evidence I’m just telling you what their evidence

is gonna be okay. That’s all alright, it’s not my ah, my own thoughts

alright, I just want you to know that. I’m just , I’m just the messenger

here. Okay. Do you understand that? Right. Okay. So we got huge

amounts of blood here alright.

ROBERT PICKTON: But that don’t mean I did it.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Not yet, okay I’m gonna show you how you, how you, you know

you’re gonna be convicted, based on DNA and based on some

other stuff too, okay. Because we both know that you did it. Right

and you know it’s normal right now, to do what you’re doing and

kinda grasping to that, to that lie, to that straw. I’ve seen it before in

other investigations you know I’ve heard about it in drownings

where um, ah, you know someone falls into the water and ah, you

know the current is pulling them down and pulling down, and pulling

down and there’s been people that have been there and stuck out

their hands trying to help people. And instead of taking that

person’s hand, that person that’s offering help you know, they hang

onto a stick that they think is gonna pull them out of the water. And

right now Rob that’s what you’re doing, you’re hanging onto a little

bit of a lie hoping it’s gonna pull you out and it’s not okay. Alright,

that little lie is not gonna help you right now. The only thing that

matters is what kind of person are you now. Because you are, you

are gonna be convicted on this. So this DNA here all over the place,

it’s all over the place, it’s on the walls, it’s on the floors, it’s on the

floor around the wall, it’s on the floor, just hear me out. It’s on the

floor around the ah, the mattress. It’s all been analyzed and comes

back as Mona. Alright, the other thing that I’m trying to show you.

ROBERT PICKTON: (OVER TALKING) That’s Mona?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Hum?

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s Mona?

V(6)

Page 93 of 252

SGT. Bill FORDY: You may not know her as Mona, okay, you just, you just killed her.

Um, this is the part I want to show you, let’s take you back. Let’s

take, oh there it is, there’s her shoes. She had her shoes on too,

when you killed her.

ROBERT PICKTON: What?

SGT. Bill FORDY: But what you did , is you put her shoes in the cupboard because

they got blood on them (OVER TALKING) too.

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Or someone else cleaned up for you after the fact maybe but um,

yeah, her DNA is on those too. And the thing is when you handle

something like that, people don’t realize of course, that DNA goes

two ways right. Like when you and I shook hands this morning ah, I

just when we made our deal to tell the truth, you know your DNA is

on my hands and my DNA is on your hands, like there’s a transfer.

Just like how blood transfers, like where you know, if I go like this

Rob, my DNA is on the wall right. And with the, the way the science

works nowadays, they can come in just their high tech equipment

and they can take that DNA. And what they’ve done, I’m gonna

explain it to you, cause this is really fascinating, cause I’m not a

scientific kind of guy but it is really fascinating for me. When I ah,

when I get to read this, cause as an investigator this is, this is like

winning the lottery. You know, you can’t nobody else can come in

and say well that, my name’s ROBERT PICKTON he’s, he’s ah, not

really ROBERT PICKTON. You’re probably wondering well jeez, how

did they even get my DNA? We had your DNA, the police had your

DNA. Alright and they’ve done an analysis so the first part that they

analyzed was the molding, the moldings around the ah, floor and

um, the mattress area. Okay. There was a sock there, I guess I

must have missed it in the pictures, one of her socks was there too

and it had blood on it. Her blood, Mona’s blood, alright. So this girl

that you, you’ve never known and you’ve never had at your place

there, her DNA’s all over. And you can’t, you can’t argue with that.

ROBERT PICKTON: But that…

SGT. Bill FORDY: And you’re, and you’re gonna probably ask yourself how does that

tie to me? Cause you’re saying to me right now …

ROBERT PICKTON: It doesn’t, I mean I don’t even know her.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay, hear me out then. You’re probably saying to me, well Bill

yeah, okay, her DNA’s at my place now, okay she died at my place.

You, you have to acknowledge that right.

Page 94 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: Possible, okay, okay.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah and you’re saying to me Billy …

ROBERT PICKTON: I mean, I mean that’s what you say, I mean I, …

SGT. Bill FORDY: Hear me out for a second okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: Okay.

SGT. Bill FORDY: And you’re saying okay, yeah, I agree with you now, the experts are

gonna say she died there. That’s where she died based on the

amount of blood. And you’re saying to yourself but Bill how does

that prove that it’s me? And you’re saying to yourself show me that

it’s me and yeah, I’ll admit it, because you are a logical thinker.

That’s what the experts say about you, is you are logical and you

think okay, show me and then you told me here today that you were

a good person. Right. So you’re a logical thinker and a good person

so naturally what you’re gonna say to me is Bill show me how that

ties to me. Right, that’s probably what you’re thinking. And then

yeah, once you show me I will accept responsibility. That’s what the

experts say you’re gonna do, because deep down inside you are a

good person, you know the difference between good and bad and

let’s face it. So I’m show…

ROBERT PICKTON: So my picture’s all over the front page.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Hear me out.

ROBERT PICKTON: Shit. … I didn’t do anything.

SGT. Bill FORDY: You know what Rob you did.

ROBERT PICKTON: I didn’t.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Hear me out, please stop it. I don’t want anymore lies okay. And

(14:20) you know what Rob, if your mom was in this room right now, with

us, if your mother, whom you love, and whom you respect, was in

this room right now Rob, she would want you to tell the truth.

(PICKTON TAKES A DRINK) She would want you to be

responsible and she would want you to be the standup, solid, good

person. Alright. She would want you to find balance in your life

because you’ve gone through life probably where you can’t find

balance. And you’re searching for that and you don’t understand

yourself, and you’re probably scared inside. Because you are a

good person that simply wants balance Rob, we all want balance in

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our lives. That’s all we want is balance, we want balance (FORDY

TOUCHES PICKTON WITH THE FILE) and we want to be loved

and we want to be respected and that’s all you’ve ever wanted, is to

be loved and to have balance in your life. That’s all I want and that’s

all you’ve ever wanted and if your mom was here she would want

you to tell the truth and to be a standup, responsible guy Rob.

ROBERT PICKTON: But I didn’t do anything.

SGT. Bill FORDY: You did okay, stop it. Please don’t say that anymore. I’m gonna

show you. Alright and you know what, you’re probably sitting there

and you’re, and you’re wondering Jesus how do I get out of this

now?

ROBERT PICKTON: I didn’t do anything.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Hear me out, that’s what you’re wondering right. What’s, what are

you wondering?

ROBERT PICKTON: I didn’t do anything, I don’t know her.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay you may not know her name.

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. Bill FORDY: You might know her as a different name…

ROBERT PICKTON: No. I don’t know her face or nothing else.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Well maybe she looked a little bit different but I know you remember

her eye okay and you know what, it’s okay for you right now to be

scared. (FORDY MOVES AWAY) It’s okay for you to say jeez Bill I

don’t know her. I don’t want to accept responsibility because this is

a scary time for you. This is a scary, scary time and there are a lot

of people right now that think that you’re some crazy, sick,

demented, wacko. There are people out there that think that of you.

There are some cops in this building right now that think you’re

some crazy, sick, demented, wacko. I’m gonna tell you though,

there are also some cops that think these girls live on the East side

of Vancouver, they’re out there selling their bodies, they had no

self-respect, they’re jamming needles into their arms, heroin, coke,

up, down, speed, whatever, they are the masters of their own

destiny and everything happens to everybody for a reason. I’ve

been involved in cases where I’ve seen girls from the East end

stealing from each other, you know, breaking into houses,

stealing from innocent, good, hard working people. I’ve seen those

kind of girls in action. Okay. There are different camps in this

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building right now Rob, there are camps that see you as some sick,

sick, demented man. Some weirdo, now I hope that’s not the case.

You know, you’re probably asking yourself jeez, what are my

friends gonna think of me? What are the people around me gonna

think of me? Are they still gonna be my friends? (PICKTON – HEAD

IN HIS HANDS) Are they gonna leave me and abandon me, leave

me on my own, to go away to jail forever and be alone? I can’t work

anymore, can’t go back to my farm. I can’t imagine what’s going

through your head right now, other than you’re scared. Other than

you’re asking yourself why, why did this happen to me?

ROBERT PICKTON: Why?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Probably wishing that you were understood when you were

younger, asking yourself why, why me? Why have I ended up the

way I am? Why have I ended up here today, talking to Bill? Why

have I taken these lives, why had I done the things that I’ve done?

ROBERT PICKTON: I didn’t.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Because you know what Rob, you have and I’ll, I’m, I’m gonna say

something else, if you’re not asking yourself why, then I am scared

for you. Okay, because then you are beyond help. You are beyond

ever understanding yourself and you are beyond ever, anybody

else ever understanding you either. You are that weirdo if that’s the

case. If you’re not asking yourself why. And it’s normal to cling to a

lie right now. I’ve seen it, I’ve seen it in kids where we learn it as

young kids. Anybody that’s a parent sees it, you talk to your parents

and they’ve seen it, I’ve seen it in my own kids Rob. (PICKTON

TAKES A DRINK) I can go outside and ah, you know, my son’s

playing outside, he breaks the window, I go over and I say to him,

Liam, did you break that window? What’s the first thing that he

says? He says no, because when we’re young we learn to lie Rob.

And right now you’re…

ROBERT PICKTON: This is, this is way out of hand.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Well you know what, Rob you’re right, this is way out of hand.

(PICKTON HOLDS HIS HEAD IN HIS HAND) This is very, very far

gone, this is the train that’s at the end of the track. It’s on the tracks,

it’s picking up speed and as that train keeps going there’s gonna be

more and more evidence. Rob this investigation is really only two

weeks old on you. And there’s already tons of evidence coming in,

tons and tons, and tons and tons and tons. The end result of this

investigation is inevitable you’re gonna be convicted and you’re

gonna go to jail okay. I can’t change that Rob, and neither can you

right now. The only thing that matters now is what kind of person

Page 97 of 252

are you? What kind of person, more importantly, do you want to

be? You can’t change the past, okay, you can’t go back

unfortunately, and change the things that you’ve done. You also

can’t change the things that were done to you. You can’t do that, if

we could everybody in this building would be changing things.

That’s not the way it works. The only thing that you can do Rob is

you can change what kind of person you want to be. That’s the only

thing you can change, that’s the only thing you have any control

over now, is what kind of person does Robert William PICKTON

want to be. Because you’re done on this. Your brother knows it,

Dinah knows it, everybody knows it now and you know it. They’re

gonna keep going through your property, they’re gonna find more,

they’re gonna find lots of stuff there, stuff that you can’t explain, you

can’t explain everything off Rob, you know that. You can’t explain it

off in lies anyways. This is over for you. (PAUSE 15 SEC) This is

over Rob. This isn’t going away. I know you just wanted to balance

you were born into that pig farm, deep down inside you probably

loved it at one time. I know that. I know that inside you is that you

have some goodness, alright, (FORDY TOUCHES PICKTON’S

LEG) I know that.

ROBERT PICKTON: Okay.

SGT. Bill FORDY: You know what Rob, you know when your mom died of cancer, and

that cancer was inside her, and it just ate and ate and ate and ate

away, and kept eating, and she got sicker and sicker and sicker and

then she died, and she was gone. That’s what this lie is, it’s like a

cancer and it’s gonna kill you and you’re the only one who can take

care of that. Right now you’re the surgeon Rob. You got the knife in

your hand, you’ve got to cut that cancer out and you’ve gotta cut

that lie out. Because if you don’t, it’s gonna kill you. It’s gonna eat

you and it’s gonna eat you and it’s gonna eat you, it’s gonna get

worse and worse and worse and you’re gonna be asking yourself

why, why, why? All you ever wanted was balance. And you wanted

to be understood and I want to understand you Rob. Before an

alcoholic can get help Rob, he’s gotta say hi, my name is John and

I’m an alcoholic. He’s gotta go into that recovery house, he has to

say hi, my name is John, and I’m an alcoholic and I need help.

Before a fuckin’ drug addict can get help Rob, he’s gotta stand up

and say hi, my name is Rick I’m an alcoholic, I’m a drug addict and

I need help.

ROBERT PICKTON: Shit, it’s in the paper and everything else?

SGT. Bill FORDY: You’re done.

ROBERT PICKTON: I can’t even go to the fuckin’ courthouse or anything.

Page 98 of 252

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, hum. That’s where you’re gonna go is in the courthouse.

You’re not gonna get released and you’re in jail now, you’re gonna

stay here. Yeah, it’s gonna be hard for you, you’re gonna have a

long, tough, difficult haul, it’s not gonna be easy.

(PAUSE 20 SEC)

ROBERT PICKTON: So I’m not gonna go back am I?

SGT. Bill FORDY: No.

ROBERT PICKTON: Not on paro, not on bail or anything

else.

SGT. Bill FORDY: No. You’ll be held in custody.

ROBERT PICKTON: I’ll be in custody?

SGT. Bill FORDY: You’re gonna be in custody, in jail, yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: Until I deal with this here.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Well you’re yeah. It’s over. It’s done. The only thing you can do now

is start to put it behind you. And in some sense I, you know what

I’m sure you’re relieved this is over, this game of cat and mouse is

over now. You know Rob they’ve done some of the most incredible

things you’ve ever seen in this investigation that they’re doing.

You’ve seen the satellite or how they’re using satellites now? I

mean they’ve got it nailed down as to when ah, you’re saying that

girl dropped off her inhaler, her bag, they got the date nailed down

okay. Alright. What would you say if I told you that they’re altering

the traj, trajectory on the satellites? And you saw that movie Enemy

of the State you know what they can do right. You saw the movie

Enemy of the State. Alright did you the, the satellites when they

were looking for Bin Laden they were able to satellite right down…

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t watch TV.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay, well I’ll explain it to you then alright. Alright. They’re able to,

to alter the trajectory, the angle of these satellites so they can look

down and they can see a license plate on a car. Okay. That’s how

good it is. And we know the last day she picked up her, her stuff

alright. Now you’ve told me this story…

ROBERT PICKTON: Who’s this?

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SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, I’m sorry, a different girl. The one that left the bag there.

ROBERT PICKTON: She’s not here. Is she here too?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah, she’s here, she’s one of those.

ROBERT PICKTON: She’s dead.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: She’s dead.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: The one ah, the one that dropped the bag off.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: She’s dead

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah. Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: Where is she?

SGT. Bill FORDY: I’m gonna explain this to you.

ROBERT PICKTON: She’s dead.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Hear me out for a second alright. Hear me out for a second okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: She’s dead too?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Hear me out for a second okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: No way, no way.

SGT. Bill FORDY: (CLEARS THROAT)

ROBERT PICKTON: I dropped her off at the bus depot.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah, okay. You know what, you dropped her off at the bus depot?

Is that what you’re telling me, what your evidence is, is that what

you’re telling me.

ROBERT PICKTON: I did.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay.

Page 100 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: She never did come back. She was supposed to be back the next,

the same night.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah. What time of the day did you do that?

ROBERT PICKTON: Nine.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Nine in the morning. So you dropped her off at nine in the morning,

she slept the night and you took her there at nine in the morning.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Where did you guys sleep?

ROBERT PICKTON: In my trailer, in, in the trailer.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Did you have sex with her?

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: I was going to.

SGT. Bill FORDY: What happened?

ROBERT PICKTON: It was kinda late in the night and I says I gotta be back to work in

the morning. So I tell her I’d take her to the bus depot, in

Coquitlam at the Canadian Super Store. So I dropped her off there,

she was supposed to be coming back that night. She never come

back.

SGT. Bill FORDY: She never left your property.

ROBERT PICKTON: What you mean she never left the property?

SGT. Bill FORDY: She never left your property.

ROBERT PICKTON: I took her to the bus depot. … I took her to the bus depot. … And

she was supposed to be back that same, the next night. I gave her

a hundred dollar bill (PAUSE – 10 SECONDS) Now you mean she

came back?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Rob you know what, I feel sorry for you right now, trying to tell these

lies.

Page 101 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: I’m not lying.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Hear me out for a second. Okay. When you say that you remind me

of my son. Alright, he’s five years old.

ROBERT PICKTON: I’m not lying.

SGT. Bill FORDY: And when he’s caught in a lie that’s exactly how he reacts. Okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: Okay, I think we better, I better go back.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay Rob, you know what, you don’t have to tell me anything

alright.

ROBERT PICKTON: But she, you’re saying she’s dead.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Hear me out for a second. Just let me, let me address one point

first okay. You don’t have to tell me anything or say anything to me.

Alright, I understand that. But I am duty bound to come in here and

talk to you about the case and that’s what I’m gonna do.

ROBERT PICKTON: And you’re saying she’s dead.

SGT. Bill FORDY: She’s dead. And we’re gonna walk through some of the evidence

here, and you know what, we never even finished talking about the

first girl yet. There’s lots more evidence I haven’t talked to

you about yet.

ROBERT PICKTON: Cause I didn’t do it, I didn’t. I didn’t. And I’ll tell you

right now.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Who did?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know. I honestly don’t know. I’ll tell you right now.

SGT. Bill FORDY: She’s buried on your property?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know nothing about it. I don’t, now honestly I don’t. I’m being

honest with you.

SGT. Bill FORDY: I want you to be honest.

ROBERT PICKTON: I am. I am. I can’t, I mean I haven’t seen her in my life really.

SGT. Bill FORDY: You haven’t seen her anywhere in your life? You know Rob, when

we go through our lives, alright, there are different kinds of people.

Page 102 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: What, what makes you think I did it, I mean …

SGT. Bill FORDY: Hear me out, I’m gonna explain things to you.

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t even go in the trailer.

SGT. Bill FORDY: I’m gonna explain things to you okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: Just because it’s on my property doesn’t mean very much does it?

SGT. Bill FORDY: What?

ROBERT PICKTON: The trailer, the motor home. I never been in there for, quite a spell

now.

SGT. Bill FORDY: So you’ve never been in that motor home? You’re telling me that

too.

ROBERT PICKTON: Not for quite a spell. Not for quite a spell. Not for quite a spell. I’ve

only been in my trailer. I’m telling you right now.

SGT. Bill FORDY: I’m lettin’ you tell me, I’m listening to you.

ROBERT PICKTON: And like I says the other girl there with the black case, I dropped

her off at the bus depot at about nine o’clock in the morning. I’m not

too sure exactly what date. She’s a French girl. She’s a French girl.

What name is her? What, what’s her name?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Which one, I mean there’s a lot of them. Which one?

ROBERT PICKTON: The one with the black case, that black bag, a black duffle bag or

whatever.

SGT. Bill FORDY: The one that told you that ah, she was staying in a van behind the

Cobalt.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah. I know that one.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: And I took that one back to the bus depot and ah, it’s like I

says, I mean ah, …

SGT. Bill FORDY: Is that the, is that the one who um, you never slept with.

ROBERT PICKTON: No, I slept with her.

Page 103 of 252

SGT. Bill FORDY: Oh you did sleep her.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Did you have sex with her?

ROBERT PICKTON: No. No. She’ll tell you the same thing too. I dropped her off at the

bus depot.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Where?

ROBERT PICKTON: At the Canadian Super Store. No, not down, not the ah, the

Coquitlam Station.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, where did you work that day? Cause you remember dropping

her off you must remember where you worked.

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t remember.

(KNOCKING)

SGT. Bill FORDY: Come on in.

Sgt. Jim HUNTER: Bill can I see you for a sec?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Absolutely.

Sgt. Jim HUNTER: Sorry to interrupt you.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Excuse me Rob. (LEAVES ROOM)

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t believe this. No, no way, can’t believe this.

(PAUSE 5 MIN 30 SEC)

ROBERT PICKTON: I can’t believe this.

(PAUSE 25 SEC)

SGT. Bill FORDY: How you doin? Did you finish the juice?

(14:49:33)

ROBERT PICKTON: What’s that?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Just hang on a sec. I think I have, I think I might owe you an

apology here. Ah, Jim just asked me cause Jim’s a monitor and

Jim’s my partner. He’s ah, he mentioned something to me and I

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said well maybe I’ve made a mistake ah, and I quite frankly I think I

did have, just one sec, and ah, you said to me that you didn’t kill

Roxanne.

ROBERT PICKTON: Why is she missing?

SGT. Bill FORDY: No, no. Hear me out for a second, I, I asked you if you killed

her and you said yeah, you said no.

ROBERT PICKTON: I didn’t.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Right, you said no, you didn’t kill her right.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay. I might have misunderstood you, because when I thought

that she was dead alright, and I thought from your impression that

she was dead. So I thought you know…

ROBERT PICKTON: Why did you find her?

SGT. Bill FORDY: No, just hear me out for a second alright. Sorry.

ROBERT PICKTON: I can’t believe this.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Just hang on. Just hang on, let me finish. Just hang on. Um, no just

let me finish. Um, I thought if he’s lying to me about this girl, about

Sereena say or, or Mona or Patricia or any of these other girls, then

he’s lying to me about Roxanne too. It’s kinda like you know, that

little boy who cried wolf.

ROBERT PICKTON: I am not lying.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay see I, I want to apologize because I, I got locked on that and I

thought if he was lying about one he’s lying about them all but that’s

not the case. That’s what people are probably gonna think about

you that you know, if you lie about one then you’re lying about them

all. You understand that like you know, the little boy that cried wolf

but anyway, you want to see these, sure you can see ‘em. And

that’s what people are gonna think about you ah, there’s today’s

paper um, (PAUSE 15 SEC) hold on one sec, I just gotta check

something this isn’t the right paper, you can read that okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: Can I see that one please.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Ah, it’s the wrong paper, I think, it’s the sport section.

Page 105 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: This is it, on the bottom, this is it.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Oh, your right, that’s what it is, it’s not the, I thought it was the lead

story. Well it is there, it’s, it’s on the bottom, it is the front page. You

can read those for a second.

(LEAVES ROOM FOR 6 MIN 30 SEC) (PICKTON READS NEWSPAPER)

SGT. Bill FORDY: Get the idea? Where’s the other one?

ROBERT PICKTON: Other what.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Oh they’re both here. Get the idea? Believe me now? That you’re

done. (PAUSE 30 SEC) Now the irony of you holdin’ her picture,

Mona WILSON’s picture is that ah, you killed her, you took her life.

That crime scene examination is done now. Okay, you realize now

you’re done, it’s in the paper as your charged, okay, you’re done.

It’s over, you know, you’re not gonna get bail ah, you’re gonna be

held in custody you know, you’re gonna go to trial, you’re gonna go

to jail and ah, you know, you may or may not die there. I don’t know.

Okay, you are done you’re asking yourself gee Bill that’s great that

you got her DNA there, that’s great that she died at my place.

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know her, to be honest with you I don’t.

SGT. Bill FORDY: You know what Bob.

ROBERT PICKTON: I know you don’t believe me.

SGT. Bill FORDY: And neither is the jury and neither is the judge and neither is

anybody that reads the papers because you know what your DNA

is with hers. You’re done, you’re done. Just like we shook hands,

your DNA was on me, my DNA is on you, took samples of your

DNA’s together with hers. You’re done, it’s over, you’re done.

(FORDY HOLDING MONA WILSON PICTURE TO PICKTON)

Done, done, done, done like dinner, roast pork. And you can cry

wolf to this right and people will think that you’ve done ‘em all, it’s

your choice. You’re done and you have no idea Rob, you have no

idea what those investigators are doin’ up there. They’re digging,

they’re gonna go through every centimeter, every inch, of that

property of yours. Okay, there’s two camps here even. There’s

camps that say they’re buried alive or that they’re buried whole you

know, that they’re killed and they’re buried like as a whole bo,

whole person. Right just some people think that’s what you are

because you’re a burier and there’s other people that think no,

maybe they’re chopped up and ground and skinned like pigs and

you know, we’ll find a tooth here and a bone here and you know,

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fingernail here and bla, bla, bla, bla, bla. Because of regardless of

which way you did it, it’s gonna get recovered. They’re gonna go

through every bone on the property, every piece of evidence on that

property and there’ll be people saying oh, no, no that’s a pig

bone, or that’s a, a bird bone or a cow bone or a horse bone or

whatever cause you know what, they’re probably gonna find those

things too. But amongst those things are gonna be the human stuff

and the experts because they’re gettin’ paid a lot of money, and it’s

a high profile case right. They’re gonna get their, they’re gonna get

their evidence and your DNA is with hers. It’s all over.

ROBERT PICKTON: I didn’t do that.

SGT. Bill FORDY: It’s all over.

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t even know her really.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Bob it’s all over, alright. So for you to sit here and look me square in

the eyes…

ROBERT PICKTON: …square in the eyes.

SGT. Bill FORDY: To do that and say you didn’t . . .

ROBERT PICKTON: I didn’t.

SGT. Bill FORDY: . . . do it, tells me that you’re nothing but a dirty, rotten little liar.

ROBERT PICKTON: Well you think what you want to think but I…

SGT. Bill FORDY: That’s what you’re telling me. Okay because I know the difference.

Not only I know the difference every investigator in this building,

every person that sitting on the jury, every judge that’s gonna be on

the bench, every person that’s gonna be in the gallery of the court

room, every person that’s gonna read a newspaper is gonna know

that your DNA is with her DNA and she is dead. It’s not somebody

else’s DNA there’s billions of people on the earth Bob it’s your DNA.

One person. Robert William PICKTON. So you’re done on this. And

you can continue to lie, you can continue to, to hide behind lies

because that’s what people do when they’re scared and . . .

ROBERT PICKTON: (INDECIPHERABLE)

SGT. Bill FORDY: . . . they don’t know what their future’s gonna hold. And that’s what

you’re doing is you’re scared and you don’t know what’s gonna

happen. You know, and you know what Bob, that’s normal.

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ROBERT PICKTON: Who’s the other one?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Ah, where would you like me to start? How about I start here?

(POINTS TO PHOTO 1 OF PHOTO BOARD)

ROBERT PICKTON: There.

SGT. Bill FORDY: How about I start with number one?

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, right.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Sereena ABOTSWAY. You’re also charged with her murder Bob.

ROBERT PICKTON: No way.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yes sir. (PAUSE) (FORDY TAPPING HIS FEET) And you know

what Bob they’re gonna keep, they’re gonna keep going at that

crime scene. They’re not even, they’re not even one tenth of the

way done there in the, in the house, the trailer, the motor homes,

the barns, the slaughter houses, the property. They haven’t even

started diggin’ they just got all the equipment there. Heaven knows

what else they’re gonna find there.

ROBERT PICKTON: They’re not gonna find nothing there.

SGT. Bill FORDY: You know what? You’re wrong. They’ve already got you linked to

tons of them and this is in two weeks Bob, we’re two weeks into this

investigation. This, this investigation it’s gonna go on for a year.

You must be scared inside, I can’t imagine how you feel, but you’re

done okay. What you do is, what you need to do is you need to

realize that, you need to come to some sort of understanding and

you need to start looking at yourself. Start thinking about okay, who

am I prepared to take down with me. Am I prepared to take down

Dave?

ROBERT PICKTON: Dave, what’s Dave got to do with it?

SGT. Bill FORDY: He’s got the same last name you do.

ROBERT PICKTON: What’s that got to do…

SGT. Bill FORDY: Well as long as you live a lie … as long as you’re lying, he’s tied to

that lie. DJ, what are the effects gonna be on him? The other

people that are involved in your life. The people that trust you, they

may even love you, these people that you’ve been lying to…

ROBERT PICKTON: I gotta go back to cell.

Page 108 of 252

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah, you know what, Rob my duty is to come in here and talk to

you um, that’s what I’m gonna do. That decision to talk or not to talk

and, and to talk to me about these girls is yours. Okay. Um, I’m not

gonna make you say anything you don’t want to say alright.

ROBERT PICKTON: I didn’t do it…

SGT. Bill FORDY: But you did okay, and we both know that. And there’s lots and lots

of ah, evidence and there’s lots of people that you know, you think

of your friends you know, are talking to us about the way that you

told them ah, you know, the good way to kill a girl, the good way to

get rid of somebody.

ROBERT PICKTON: Really, who said that?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Have you ever, let me ask you, have you ever said to anybody, a

good way to kill a girl or that you could get rid of somebody, have

you ever asked somebody to get rid of them. Because I’m gonna

tell you the answer to all those questions is yes. That there are lots

of witnesses now coming forward. That all these people have

friends and eyes on the streets now, who all know you now and

now that they realize. When, when they started this investigation

they had a professional criminal profiler look at it and they said this

guy will have a couple of things. One, he will be known to the girls,

he will have a means of getting them out of the area and he will

have a means of disposing of the bodies. You have all three of

those traits. Okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: How’s that?

SGT. Bill FORDY: You’re known to the girls, okay. Dinah’s been down there with you,

you know, you’re known. They know you, all, all those street trade

workers down there have been, interviewed now. There, there’s a

thing called loyalty alright and when they’re not in trouble they’re

anti-police, right. They hate the police, nobody cooperates with the

police but when their, I won’t say loved ones, the people that are

like them and they’re got a lot in common but all of a sudden, they

realize there is one person on the outside there, that’s harming all

the people on the inside you know. It’s like a rattlesnake going

around ah, you know ah, a den full of little baby ah, cubs right. That

rattlesnake can bite anybody it wants, and hurt anybody, but when

those cubs get angry and they become bears, they can fight back,

black bears. Alright. And now what’s happening is the streets now

have eyes and everybody ‘s coming forward and saying I remember

seeing him with this girl, I remember seeing with that girl. Your own

friends, people that you worked with are coming forward, talking

Page 109 of 252

about you, alright. You think this is bad now, you want to continue

living this lie? You want to continue living this lie, do you you want

to know what people are gonna say about you. Because you’re

living a lie right and that choice to live that lie or not is yours. I want

to show you a tape I’ve got here, just a second. (PAUSE 15 SEC)

(FORDY SETS UP AND RETRIEVES A VIDEO) this one jumps to

my mind and you’re thinkin’ hum, this is not good, because now the

people that are around me, the people that I thought were my

friends or my colleagues, people that I’ve worked with, people that

I’ve had a beer with, people that I’ve partied with are all of a sudden

putting all the pieces of the puzzle together, and when you get a

whole bunch of pieces to a puzzle then at the end you get a

picture. And now a picture is starting to be developed of you. Okay,

one component is you’re done because your DNA is with Mona

WILSON’s DNA. Robert and Mona are tied together forever. Okay,

I’m sorry, I might have said the name Roxanne earlier. I wasn’t

talkin’ about Roxanne, I have no idea who Roxanne is, it’s a name

you told me. I may have mistaken it. You and Mona are tied

together through DNA. (POINTING AT PICTURE)

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know her.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay, no she’s not alive, you don’t know her anymore cause she’s

dead, you killed her. Now your friends even, your trusted friends,

are all coming forward and guess who’s camp they’re, they’re,

they’re all gettin’ in, the police. Okay, not because they don’t like

you, because they know what the right thing to do is. Remember

this, (PLAYING TAPE )

ROBERT PICKTON: Who’s that?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Dwayne CHUBB.

ROBERT PICKTON: Who?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Don’t know him?

ROBERT PICKTON: Who is it?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Dwayne. (PAUSE 15 SEC) this is a tape of Dwayne CHUBB.

(PAUSE 30 SEC)

ROBERT PICKTON: Saw Willy.

(PAUSE 20 SEC)

Page 110 of 252

SGT. Bill FORDY: He’s identified her off the photos.

ROBERT PICKTON: Who’s that?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Dwayne.

ROBERT PICKTON: Who’s Dwayne?

(PAUSE 20 SEC)

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s …Scott.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s Scott.

SGT. Bill FORDY: We call him Dwayne, you might know him as Scott.

(PAUSE 40 SEC)

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, Lynn THOMPSON.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: What. (PAUSE 25 SEC) What? …. What? (PAUSE 35 SEC) is that

Scott CHUBB?

SGT. Bill FORDY: CHUBB yeah. Dwayne, I call him Dwayne CHUBB. Scott CHUBB,

same guy.

(PAUSE 1 MIN)

ROBERT PICKTON: Ten thousand bucks what…(PAUSE 55 SEC) that’s Scott CHUBB,

right.

SGT. Bill FORDY: CHUBB. I call him Dwayne, you might call him Scott.

(PAUSE 20 SEC)

ROBERT PICKTON: Dirty rotten pigs.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah, threatened them.

(PAUSE 15 SEC)

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ROBERT PICKTON: Night before last, I talked to him?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Al TRAUTMAN did.

(PAUSE 1 MIN 10 SEC)

ROBERT PICKTON: What?

(PAUSE 40 SEC) (STOPS THE TAPE. REWINDS)

ROBERT PICKTON: Is there more, or is that it?

SGT. Bill FORDY: There’s lots. But I guess you get the picture eh? (PUTS TAPE

AWAY AND INTO BOX. STANDING UP) You know, so you can

continue to try and spin the same story, but really I gotta tell you

um, (SITS DOWN) Rob nobody’s gonna believe you. Now when,

and you know how stories work right, when you tell a lie about one

thing, when it’s painfully obvious, what you know the story about

the little ah, boy that cried wolf. You know, soon, nobody believes

you about anything. And that’s what’s gonna happen here Rob, and

you can lie about one thing, you can lie about two things but when

those one or two things get proven, people look at the big picture

and say well he’s probably lying about everything. I mean you know

CHUBB’s how’s that gonna look in court. What kind of guy is Robert

PICKTON gonna be perceived as? And you and I both know that

they’re gonna find things in the ground there. And you’re gonna try

to tell some little story that well it wasn’t me it was someone else,

how did that get there, I’ve been framed. And nobody’s gonna

believe you because you’ve lied about other things. You lied about

one or two things and…

ROBERT PICKTON: (OVER TALKING) (INDECIPHERABLE)

SGT. Bill FORDY: …now people are gonna think you lie about everything. That

decision is to tell the truth or not is yours. Alright Rob. You’re the

only person that has control over what kind of person you want to

be because that evidence is gonna keep coming in. You’re not

gonna be able to hide from it, you’re not gonna be able to run away

from it. You know, you’re certainly not gettin’ out of jail. There’s two

camps I told you, there’s two, the investigators are saying two

things, one, you killed the girls and buried them whole. Then the

other camp is saying that you probably you know, screwed them

after they were dead, had some postmortem sex, chopped them up

and they’re gonna find teeth, they’re gonna find fingernails, they’re

gonna find stuff that was fed to the pigs. Even if they were fed to

the pigs, the, the DNA would live through the pig shit. (PICKTON

PICKS UP MONA WILSON PHOTO THEN PUTS DOWN) So you

Page 112 of 252

are gonna be done, and you know, convicted and um, sent away.

There are a lot of people though that want to understand you, and

you probably won’t even under, understand yourself. They say that

when someone is like you, you know, cause you have, you have

taken Mona’s life you know, and I, I call her Mona, because I don’t

know what her street name was. (PICKS UP AND SHOWS PHOTO

OF MONA WILSON TO PICKTON) So I’m gonna call her Mona

okay. And I’m gonna call her Mona rather than ah, Mona WILSON

because that sounds too formal, I’m gonna call her Mona. And you

took her life, and your DNA is with her DNA. So when you say you

don’t know her, you’ve never been with her and she’s never been to

your house, she’s never been on your property, never been in your

car, never been anywhere, then that’s a lie. That’s a bald faced lie.

Right. And society can accept a lot of things, and they are intrigued

by a lot of things. The one thing that they’re not accepting of and

they’re not intrigued by, nobody ever cares to listen to is a bald

faced little liar. Nobody likes a liar. You can break into a hundred

houses, steal a bunch of cars, rape a bunch of women, do a bunch

of murders and you can be still respected if you tell the truth. But if

you do all those things and you tell a bunch of little lies then

nobody’s gonna respect you. Nobody’s gonna care about you.

They’re just gonna throw you away, lock you in jail forever and no

ones gonna care, and no ones ever gonna talk about you. You’re

just gonna be the little liar. You’re already convicted on one. You’re

gonna be convicted on another and another, and another, and

another and you’re a hard working guy Rob, inside you there is

some good, there’s some, some good work ethics, you know,

there’s some understanding of what it’s like to work for your money,

to, to be an honest hard worker. Okay, and I don’t know what it was

when you were growing up that caused you to want to find that

balance to need that balance. And, I hope for a second that you’re

not involved with anything else other than these girls. I really, truly

do hope that from the bottom of my heart Rob. Because if you are

and if I’m wrong about you, then I’m ashamed of myself. But I’m a

good guy that I look in the mirror everyday and I respect myself. I

might do some things that are wrong, that I’m ashamed of or I’m not

proud of, but at least I acknowledge those things. Because I am a

stand-up guy and it takes courage to do that and you have to be

brave and you have to be strong. And it takes guts and sometimes

it’s scary to climb a hill and get to the top and jump off. Sometimes

that’s what you have to do Rob. (PAUSE) And if DJ or Tammy or

someone was looking in this room right now, and they knew what I

know now, the truth and they were looking at you, Rob, they would

see one of two people. One who acknowledges what kind of person

they are, who admits yeah, I made some mistakes, I’ve done some

things that were wrong and wants to be understood. They’re gonna

be willing to accept you when you say, when you say that Rob.

Page 113 of 252

They’re not gonna be willing to accept the other guy. DJ’s not and

Tammy’s not nobody else that matters is. Rob and you know what

the right thing to do is mister. The right thing to do is to be brave

and to be strong for Tammy, to be strong for DJ, to be strong for the

people that you love and the same people that love you. If your

mother was in this room, she would want you to tell the truth too

Rob. You need to tell the truth for your mother and for DJ and for

Tammy because it’s the right thing to do Rob.

ROBERT PICKTON: Scott CHUBB.

SGT. Bill FORDY: He’s gonna give evidence.

ROBERT PICKTON: He’s gonna give evidence.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Absolutely.

ROBERT PICKTON: After everything I helped him with.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah. He’s just the first Rob, there’s lots of people coming

(15:29) forward now. I told you this case is getting bigger and stronger

everyday, everyday, everyday this case gets better. The

foundations of this case are the DNA. (FORDY PONTS TOWARDS

THE DOOR) The witnesses are coming in, friends of the girls are

coming in. Rob, I’m not sittin’ here saying that I think your some

crazy, some wacko cause I have listened to you here today and I

know that you have some good in you. And you’re smart, you’re not

a dummy. If you think for one second that I’m sitting here thinking

you’re just a plain dumb pig farmer, that is not the case. My friend

know that, know that I know that you are not stupid and you know

that too. And you may be looking for balance but you are not stupid

my friend. You know what true love is. … yeah, these girls were at

the end of the road, they’re down in East Van, they’re wired on

drugs, they’re selling their bodies, they’re certainly not like your

mother. But at one time they had mothers too you know, that held

them, cuddled with them, loved them, cared for them and had

dreams for their children. Nobody ever dreamt in a million years,

nobody ever, ever wants their daughter to end up on skid row,

banging down into their arms, HIV positive, dying anyway. And I

don’t know, deep down inside Rob I wonder, you know, there’s a

part of me that thinks because you kept saying you’re helping

people, you’re helping people, you’re helping people, you were just

trying to help these girls. There’s a part of me that thinks maybe

that’s what it is cause you kept saying I help people, I help people, I

want to help people, I won’t stop helping people. (GOES OVER

AND TAPS ON HIS HEART) And inside you is a heart with some

goodness (TAPS ON PICKTON’S HEART AGAIN) that sees a

Page 114 of 252

glass half full of water, not a glass that’s half empty. And I know that

these girls they are not the kind of girls that you’d never want marry,

you know, they’re not like Connie. But you still took those girls away

Rob. If Tammy and DJ were here right now … they were with us

right now Rob. They’d want you to tell the truth. They’d want you to

be brave and be strong, do the right thing. I know this is hard for

you right now, your guts are probably churning, you don’ t know

what to do, it’s normal Rob. I know you’re asking oh, God what do I

(15:34) do, what do I do, I feel caged in, I don’t know what to do. You have

this piano on your back.

ROBERT PICKTON: (PICKTON RUBS HIS EYES) I don’t know Monica.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know her. I still don’t know her.

SGT. Bill FORDY: You knew her as Monica.

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know her.

SGT. Bill FORDY: You know what, hold her picture Rob. (FORDY PASSES PICTURE

TO PICKTON) Just keep it there with you, you know why it’s

important you know, for you to hold that? Because you guys are

tied together forever. And you know what you can’t look me in the

eyes and tell me you didn’t kill her because you did.

ROBERT PICKTON: I didn’t. (PICKTON PUT PICTURE ON DESK)

SGT. Bill FORDY: You did kill her and you know you can’t change that, you know,

and you know what, there’s a part of me that thinks maybe you

know, now that you’re in jail and you’re arrested and you know, you

realize that the whole world is gonna think you’re, you’re wrong.

You probably, if you could go back and change things you probably

would. You probably would wouldn’t you. You would wouldn’t you.

You would wouldn’t you Rob? You’d change things wouldn’t you?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know her.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah, you may not know her name, okay. But you did, you know,

you took her life there in the trail, in the Dodge and yeah, you know

I think it’s probably normal for you right now to try to separate

yourself from them. To run away from that and I can’t imagine the

feeling. (PICKTON MOVES PICTURE AWAY) I can’t imagine. You

know and, and I wonder about her, I wonder if she screamed, I

wonder if she was stoned, I wonder if she knew it was coming. You

know, or was it just out of the blue. (FORDY HOLDS PICTURE)

Page 115 of 252

You know, because there are people that are gonna say that you

were like the worst kind of killer. You’re a coward, you sneak up

behind them and hit ‘em while they weren’t lookin’ or hit ‘em while

they’re down or asleep and you know, that’s what some people are

gonna say about you. You know, not only is he some sick, weirdo

that probably had sex with them after they are dead probably didn’t

even have the guts to kill them from the front, that he was a coward,

he jumped on them from behind you know, maybe used a gun or

used a knife or used handcuffs or used whatever he had to do. I

don’t know what you did you know, because all I know is one thing

and that’s, that you killed this girl. You took her from her, from the

world here. You can’t change that. You can’t change what you did.

You also can’t argue with what you did. (PUTS MONA WILSON’S

PHOTO DOWN) Rob, cause you can’t explain off the DNA, your

DNA together. You’re done. Okay, you’re gonna go to jail for

twenty-five years. There’s nothing we can do about that, nothing

you can do about that right now, can’t change that.

ROBERT PICKTON: Twenty-five years anyways right.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Well twenty-five years is ah, conviction for murder right. I mean

I’m not a judge but that’s what Peter Van OSSELAER got. The only

thing that matters now Rob, quite frankly is what do you want to do?

Do you want to clear it up cause that, I and you know what,

honestly I don’t think you killed all fifty of those girls. But I do know

you killed her. (POINTING) And I do know you killed Sereena. I’m

more interested in talking about this one right now. We’ll talk about

the other ones later. That’s all I want from you quite frankly. And

when you tell me I’m gonna shake your hand and say thank you

very much for telling me. And if you tell me it’s gonna be because

you want to and you know it’s the right thing to do. Right? And after

you tell me I’m not gonna hate you. I’m gonna respect you for, for

being honest with me because I’ve, I’ve talked to lots of murderers,

I don’t hate murderers. Murders, murders happen for lots of

different reasons and I want to understand you quite frankly. I want

to understand you, I want to find out what it is that you needed to do

to have your balance. Cause we all need balance. And I want to

talk about how things happened. I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna

dislike you Rob. I’m not gonna yell at you. I’m not gonna let

anybody else yell at you or be mean to you quite frankly. Alright,

what I want is I want you to tell me the truth. I want you to say Bill

this is what happened and this is why. Rob that’s what I want you to

do. Rob. Things happen for lots of different reasons Rob. Some

people have a quench for doing one thing some people have a

quench for doing another. Like I said to you I do not think you killed

all fifty of these women. But I know you killed her and that’s where I

want to start. I want to start with Mona WILSON, I want you to tell

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me what happened. You may not know her name but you do know

that you took her, okay, you do know that and I know that. And all I

want is I want you to tell me the truth and I want you to tell me how

it happened.

ROBERT PICKTON: And who’s this other girl?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Sereena. but I don’t want to talk about her yet. I want to talk about

Mona first. I want you to tell me about her. I want you to

tell me what you did with her, where she’s gone or if she’s buried

out, if she’s buried whole, if she’s cut into parts whatever, I, I’m not

gonna be surprised by what you tell me. I, I’ve had guys tell me

about cutting a girl up and putting her in a Canada Post bag and

burying them. Nothing you say to me is gonna surprise me. I’ve

had guys tell me that they raped and murdered sixteen year old

girls, took them out, buried them in the woods. If they, people tell

me about all different types of killing. So when you tell me about

this, it’s not gonna surprise me. But I do want the truth and I want

you to tell me the truth because it’s the right thing for you to do, and

you know that Rob. Very matter of fact, very business like, you do

know that, you are a logical thinker. And you are not stupid, and I

do not think you killed all fifty of these women. But I want you to tell

me about this one. Start with this one.

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know about this one.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Which one do you want to talk about first then?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know about that.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Pardon. (PICKTON TOUCHES MONA WILSON’S PHOTO)

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know about her.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay, tell me about the ones you know. Rob, I want you to tell me.

(PAUSE) Rob, I want you to tell me the truth. You are a big boy,

you are an adult. You are mature, you are smart, you are not

stupid, you are not crazy. I want to understand you and you want to

understand yourself as well. I’m a student of human behaviour and I

speak to you from the heart. I want you to teach me about yourself,

I want you to teach me about how did ROBERT PICKTON do the

things he did. I want you to because you know it’s the right thing to

do and you want to help me understand you. We all want to be

understood Rob. We all have a destiny, we all have a calling in life.

You can be dead tomorrow. I want you to tell me Robert, (FORDY

TOUCHES PICKTON’S LEG) I know you’re with me, I know you’re

hearing my words and I know that you know I’m making sense. And

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that this is, it’s logical and it makes sense to you. Cause you are a

logical thinker.

ROBERT PICKTON: I want to go to the cell.

SGT. Bill FORDY: No . . . You’re not going to your cell okay. Rob, I want you to know

that you can’t run from this . . .

ROBERT PICKTON: I’m not running.

SGT. Bill FORDY: . . . you can’t hide from this. When you and I walk through a room

(15:45) we leave our DNA in that room, we leave our scent in that room, we

leave our perspiration, our sweat, our cells. You cannot lea, you

cannot change the places you’ve been or where you’ve left your

DNA. You cannot, you cannot change that at all Rob. These girls

quite frankly, they’re, they’re in the scum of the world okay, these

girls are on the East end of Vancouver, they’re jamming needles in

their arms, they’re HIV, they’re Hep B, they’re Hep A, they’re Hep

C, they’re walking around they’re killing machines. Everyone of

these girls has probably killed more guys than you have killed

people, because they’ve transmitted their disease. (PICKTON

RUBS EYES) Rob none of these girls wanted to end up where they

ended up, nobody ever wants to end up down there. These girls

were all gonna die, everyone of these girls was gonna die.

Everything happens for a reason Rob, they were all down there

infected with their diseases, selling their bodies for a reason. You

came into the picture Rob and you, you took some of these girls,

okay. I’m not sitting here for one second in judgment of you like

you’re some child killer. Know that. If you were the kind of guy out

killing kids, trust me, this would not be a pretty picture. And if I

thought for one second you were that kind of guy, do you think I

would want to understand you or want you to understand yourself?

Not a chance pal, and if it turns out that you’re responsible for any

of those missing kids from the East side then you know what, God

bless me for sitting here with you and being that wrong. That wrong

in judgment.

ROBERT PICKTON: Are there a bunch of kids missing too?

SGT. Bill FORDY: There’s kids missing too. You’re absolutely right there are and I

hope you’re not, you’re not a pedophile out there hurting those kids.

Rob but I do know that you have taken some of these girls. Okay,

and you and I both know that and we both know there’s evidence to

show that. And there’s gonna be more evidence to show that. It’s

never gonna go away this case is only gonna get better, it’s not

gonna get worse. Alright, everyday this case gets stronger and

stronger and stronger. This is a train coming down the tracks, the

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train’s loaded with evidence and in every box there’s DNA, there’s

body parts, are witnesses coming forward, are your friends coming

forward. People that you worked with, people that you drank with,

people that you gave money to, people that took money from you,

quite frankly Rob, people that probably used you. That used you

then and rode on your coat tails and they’re gonna do it now.

They’re gonna say I knew ROBERT PICKTON and you’re gonna try to

say I didn’t kill any of those girls and the newspapers is gonna say

that you killed fifty or a hundred, who knows where the number’s

gonna end up. It started out as twenty-seven two months ago, now

it’s up to fifty. I don’t know where it’s gonna be six months from

now. And they’re gonna ride your coat tails Rob, and they’re gonna,

they’re gonna rob you of any dignity or decency that you have.

They’re gonna have cancer pills and they’re gonna be just stickin’

them in you and they’re gonna be reaping the benefits while you rot

in jail. (FORDY TAPS ON PICKTON’S LEG) Because right now

Rob, you’re sticking to a lie, you’re clinging to a lie and you’re

hoping that lie is gonna get you out of trouble and you know what

the irony of it is? The longer you lie the worse things are gonna be

for you. That’s the irony (FORDY TAPS ON PICKTON’S KNEE) of

this situation. The longer you lie the worse it’s gonna be for you and

the worse it’s gonna be for the people around you. (FORDY TAPS

ON PICKTON’S KNEE) The worse it’s gonna be for Tammy and the

worse it’s gonna be for DJ, the only one who might benefit out of all

this is your sister Linda. (FORDY TAPS ON PICKTON’S KNEE) So

you can cling to those lies as long as you like, but know that those

lies are helping everybody and hurting one person and it’s you.

(FORDY TAPS ON PICKTON’S KNEE) And that lie is like a cancer

and it’s, it’s in you and it’s spreading and it’s gonna get worse and

worse and worse. Picture it Rob you are a glass of water and that

lie is water drops dripping into that glass. Drip, drip, drip, drip, drip.

Rob eventually that glass overflows. And your glass is almost full

and it’s filling up and now everybody else is coming to pour water

in there. Nobody can make you do anything you don’t want to do

Rob. But you must realize that you are done on this, you can’t hide

from it any longer. This is gonna spread through you, this lie is

gonna get worse. You know, there’s gonna be people watching you,

there’s gonna be people glad that you’re lying about this. If all the

people in Port Coquitlam are coming forward now, you know,

people that you knew, giving statements, I saw him do this, I saw

him do that, well I was surprised when I saw that because I thought

he was gay or I thought he was this, or this, or that or bla, bla, bla.

Everybody’s got a ROBERT PICKTON story now. Cause (FORDY

TAPS ON PICKTON’S KNEE) there’s different kinds of killers. Did

you know that? (FORDY TAPS ON PICKTON’S KNEE) There’s

different kinds of killers Rob, there’s respected killers and there’s

despised killers. Child molesters are despised. Clifford

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OLSON is despised because he raped and murdered innocent little

children. He followed them around in his van, he picked them up,

he drugged them, he got them drunk, he put spikes through their

heads, through their hands, and he brutally raped little children.

That’s what Clifford OLSON did to kids. He wrecked the families,

destroyed them families, moms and dads lied awake at night and

cried. You think you missed your mom when she died? Imagine if

you had a child eight or nine years old taken away from you, ripped

out of your arms. Imagine how you would feel, that hatred you

would have, for somebody like Clifford OLSON. Everybody hates

Clifford OLSON, he’s hated in jail, he is the worst kind of killer.

(FORDY TAPS ON PICKTON’S KNEE) And you need to ask

yourself Rob, what kind of killer do you want be remembered as?

Because you are a killer, you have taken lives… there’s no question

about that Rob, and you can’t change it, it’s not gonna go away,

and you know what, I know it probably hurts you too, and you want

to be understood. You haven’t killed any kids have you?

ROBERT PICKTON: I haven’t killed anybody really. But…

SGT. Bill FORDY: You haven’t killed any kids? Tell me you haven’t killed any kids.

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Have you killed any kids? Good thank you for telling me that.

(FORDY HOLDS OUT HAND TO SHAKE) Thank you for telling me

that I hope you’re telling me the truth here.

ROBERT PICKTON: I am.

SGT. Bill FORDY: I told you I was…

(15:54)

ROBERT PICKTON: But I never killed anybody neither.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Thank you for telling me you never killed any kids. (PICKTON

SHAKES HIS HAND) Thanks. You know it’s important Rob that you

start to understand yourself. That you look inside and say what kind

of person is ROBERT PICKTON? What kind of person does Robert

PICKTON want to be? And when you look back and you think about

when your mom was on her death bed and your mother was dying

of cancer, (PICKTON YAWNS) and she was thinking about her son

Robert, and her goals and her expectations and what she wanted

for her son, for her little Robert, (FORDY TAKES A DRINK) what

she wanted for you. Because I’m sure (FORDY MOVES

AWAY) as a parent myself, when we look at our children, we can

accept that they all do things that may, may be right or may be

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wrong. Rob but we can’t accept when they deny responsibility for

those things. And worse Rob, when they try to lie their way out of

them. And I’ve lost my mother to cancer, I know the pain that

somebody feels when you lose somebody that you love. And before

my mother died I told her that I loved her and I was there and I said

mom, I love you, you’ve been a good mom. (PICKTON HAS HAND

OVER EYES) She was a good mom to me … and I think about her

all the time and I hope that when I’m doing the things that I do, you

know, I know she’s up there watching me, I hope that she’s proud

of me, that she respects me for the person I’ve become.

ROBERT PICKTON: So I’m being charged for murder two, two murders right.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yup. For now. How’s that make you feel Rob? Rob how’s

that make you feel?

ROBERT PICKTON: Make me feel sick.

SGT. Bill FORDY: You know that feeling is not gonna go away. You know that

feeling is gonna get worse. Do you know how I knew the answer to

that before you even told me? Rob because I’ve interviewed lots of

killers and I’ve sat in room with lots and lots of people. (FORDY

LEANS IN) I don’t care who you are…

ROBERT PICKTON: And I’m not gonna get out on bail or nothing right, you say.

SGT. Bill FORDY: No. No, you’re not. (PAUSE) You’re not, absolutely not, you’re not

gonna get bail. And you know when I wake up in the mornings I

think about my mom, when I’m in the shower I sometimes think

about her. You know, I think about how lucky I was to have

somebody that loved me and I hope that everything that I do

everyday, makes her smile, because I know she’s up there

watching me, looking down on me, and watching what I do. Rob

and your mom is no different, your mom is watching down on us

right now. Rob, know that she’s in this room with us. She’s watching

over you, she’s watching over me, and if you want to make your

mom proud, if you want to meet her again in heaven, then you need

to be responsible, you need to do what your mother would want you

to do, and you know what that is. You love your mother. Don’t let

your mother down. Do not betray your mother’s honour. You’re

gonna get charged with these Rob, you’re already charged, you’re

gonna be convicted. This investigation is gonna continue, this is two

weeks worth of evidence, you’re already charged with two, this is all

(16:00) over okay. This is all over, this is not gonna go away.

ROBERT PICKTON: And who’s the other one?

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SGT. Bill FORDY: (POINTS TO FIRST PHOTO) Sereena. So what I want you to do

Rob…

ROBERT PICKTON: Where’s her file?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Her picture?

ROBERT PICKTON: Her file.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Oh, it’s here, I haven’t even got to it yet. I told you Rob, I don’t want

to talk about Sereena until I’m done talking about Mona. Until

you’ve told me what you did.

ROBERT PICKTON: I didn’t do anything.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Because you did it, you took her, you’re charged with it, you’re

gonna go to court, you’re gonna be convicted, and you’re gonna be

sentenced. And the same thing’s gonna happen (POINTS AT A

PHOTO) with Sereena and the same thing’s gonna happen with

Heather. The same thing’s probably gonna happen with Christine,

(TAPS ON FIFTH PHOTO) and you know, that list is gonna grow

and grow and grow, and grow, and grow. It’s never gonna go away

that’s for sure. As you look here, you must see pictures that you

recognize. Because I know that you recognize them. (FORDY

TAPS ON A PHOTO) And you remember them. They might look a

little different because this might have been just before they went

down the skids, some of them looked a lot worse than that probably

as they got in worse into the drugs and the prostitution but

eventually Rob, you’re gonna be tied to all the ones that you’re

responsible for. Alright, you can’t run away from that, and you can’t

hide from it, and you can continue to live your lie as long as you like

but as long as you live that lie you’re hurting people like Tammy,

you’re hurting DJ, and Dave, I don’t know, I don’t know whether

you’re hurting him or helping him. It’s up to you to decide I guess.

But you need to realize this is over, this whole book is written

except for one thing Rob, and that’s your side of the story. Your

need to be understood, your need to explain to me why you did

what you did, if you know why you did what you did, because you

may not know. And when you explain it to me maybe I can help you

understand but I know that you need to tell me. You’re dying to tell

(16:03) me, you know how I know that, because I’ve talked to lots of people

that have been in the situation that you’re in right now. And I, I

watch them when they tell me things and then how good they feel

after. A feeling of relief that everyone of them feels, (FORDY

MOVES CLOSER) and know they’ve done something good out of

whatever it is they’ve done, good, bad or indifferent. That they need

to be understood. I said to you I don’t think you killed all these girls,

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I hope you haven’t Rob. But I know you’ve killed at least one, two,

and others probably and as the evidence comes in, it’s gonna be

reflected and indicated, and you’re not, you’re never, ever gonna be

able to explain it all off, never, ever, ever, ever can you explain it

off.

ROBERT PICKTON: So where do I go from here, I go to court, then I go to…

SGT. Bill FORDY: Pre-trial and you’re held there and then you go to court and go to

court, and go to court, and go to court and then you go to jail and

there you go and you’ll probably die there. Unless you live, you’re a

long liver. And the other thing Rob, that you gotta be I guess

concerned about is and I hope you always wore condoms, but

when you’re with girls like this, there’s always the risk of ah,

infectious diseases too. (PICKTON HAS HAND OVER EYES)

(PAUSE 15 SEC) you have to realize this is good, this is over that

this train of pain, outside it’s raining out, it’s going down the tracks

and every time it goes it turns another wheel, it gets more evidence

and it gets heavier it’s gonna run right over (FORDY TAPS

PICKTON’S LEG) you Rob. This is all over. It’s all, all over. And I

know you’re good with dates, I know you’re smart, I know you’re not

some whacko, some crazy guy, I know that. But you have made

mistakes, there’s evidence all over the place, you can’t hide from it.

Rob, I want you to tell me the truth, I want you to tell me about

what’s gone on here. I want to understand you, you’re need for your

balance you’re searching for whatever it is you’re searching for.

ROBERT PICKTON: I gotta sleep on it for a couple before we continue.

SGT. Bill FORDY: No. I want to understand you know what this pain inside

your stomach it’s not gonna go away. It’s not gonna get worse for

Christ’s sake I interviewed a guy in that room across the hall who

hung himself at Surrey Pre-trial because he couldn’t handle it,

cause he killed a young girl. (POINTING FINGER AT HIM) Cause it

eats and eats and eats and (TAPPING ON PICKTON’S KNEE

EACH TIME) worse it’s gonna get worse and worse and worse. It is

never gonna get better than it is right now, it’s gonna get worse, it’s

gonna grow inside you like a cancer cell, like it killed your mother

for Christ’s sake. You know, have you ever, ever tired to figure out

why some people when they’re old they die, and two months later

their spouse dies. They die of some disease that comes on, it’s

cause it’s in, it’s inside you and it grows from within. Right now you

got a disease and it’s gonna eat you up, you need (TAPS ON LEG)

to tell me, you want to, (TAPS ON LEG) you want (TAPS ON LEG)

to talk about this, you’re wondering yourself Rob. You can’t run

from this, you can’t hide, this is gonna keep going and going and

going and going. (PICKTON HAS HAND OVER EYES) I want to

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understand you, I want to understand what happened. (PICKTON

REMOVES HAND FROM OVER EYES) Rob. I’m not gonna judge

you, I’m not going to hate you. I’m going to try to understand you.

(FORDY POINTS AT PHOTO) Cause if this is a situation where

you’re just trying to help these girls speed up a, a death that’s

inevitable, then explain that to me. You know you’re not taking

these, these girls and sending them down to Coquitlam Center and

puttin’ ‘em in a shopping cart in the middle of the street for kids to

find. You know, you have the decency not to shock the community

to take these girls from the skids. (PICKTON BEGINS TO LOOK AT

PHOTOS) People aren’t gonna hate you. If you lie, you run and

you hide though, you’re gonna hate yourself Rob.

ROBERT PICKTON: So I’m charged with mur, murder of her too right.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah. You’re absolutely right you are. This isn’t going

away, Rob. (TAPPING ON LEG) This is never, ever, ever gonna

go away.

(PAUSE 35 SEC)

Jim HUNTER: Excuse me Bill, I just, I need to see you outside, I just want Dana to

sit with Willy for a bit, I’ll talk to you about some new evidence that

just came in.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay. I’ll be right back Rob.

Jim HUNTER: I’m just gonna leave you with Dana for a minute.

CST. DANA LILLIES: Hi Robert, how you doing? (BRINGS IN TOILET PAPER ROLL)

ROBERT PICKTON: Not too bad.

CST. DANA LILLIES: Not too bad.

ROBERT PICKTON: Not too bad.

CST. DANA LILLIES: I guess ah, you’re in a bit of different position right now than you

were last time we were talking. It’s a lot to digest isn’t it?

ROBERT PICKTON: I guess I’m locked up forever.

CST. DANA LILLIES: Yeah, well like I was telling you last week, we both knew that this

was, was gonna happen.

ROBERT PICKTON: Did you find those bones I was telling you about?

Page 124 of 252

CST. DANA LILLIES: Yeah, yeah, we did.

ROBERT PICKTON: And they’re…

CST. DANA LILLIES: So you’re map was perfect.

ROBERT PICKTON: And they’re Ostrich bones?

CST. DANA LILLIES: Yes and you knew they would be.

ROBERT PICKTON: I told you that. But…

CST. DANA LILLIES: But of course there’s, there’s all this other evidence that’s come to

light. And like Bill was telling you, there’s more coming out

everyday, every, every hour. How are you feeling?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know, I don’t feel my toes because they are not on the

ground.

CST. DANA LILLIES: You don’t feel your toes?

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, because it’s not on the ground.

CST. DANA LILLIES: I’ll bet. It is a lot to be taken in, were you able to

sleep last night? Have you eaten anything since you’ve been in, in

custody here? (PICKTON SHAKES HEAD “NO”) I brought you a

sandwich.

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t like it.

CST. DANA LILLIES: You don’t like it. Well what do you want to eat, cause we, we should

really get you something to eat.

ROBERT PICKTON: I didn’t eat anything yet.

CST. DANA LILLIES: What, what would you like to eat Robert?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know. At this stage, do I deserve anything to eat?

CST. DANA LILLIES: What’s that?

ROBERT PICKTON: Do I deserve anything to eat?

CST. DANA LILLIES: Of course you do. (LILLIES PUTS TOILET PAPER DOWN) Robert,

you’re a human being, you’re a human being who’s made some

mistakes, and that’s why we’re here to talk to you. To understand,

we’re not here to judge you, I told you that last week, that I wasn’t

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going to judge you. I’m ready to listen to whatever you have to say.

ROBERT PICKTON: I’m dead before I start.

CST. DANA LILLIES: You’re not dead.

ROBERT PICKTON: Just as well.

CST. DANA LILLIES: Like I said, you’re a human being, and we’re treating you like a

human being. You deserve that. (PAUSE)

ROBERT PICKTON: I should be on death row.

CST. DANA LILLIES: Well I don’t, I don’t happen to believe that. You know, sitting and

talking with you last week, I can see…

ROBERT PICKTON: I’m finished, I’m finished.

CST. DANA LILLIES: Well you know, we’ve come to a point.

ROBERT PICKTON: I’m dead.

CST. DANA LILLIES: You know what Robert, we’ve come to a point where, where you

have to deal with what’s happened. And you have to accept what’s

happened and, and the best way to, to deal with it is openly and

honestly. But this is not the end of the world.

ROBERT PICKTON: What is?

CST. DANA LILLIES: You’re gonna go on living…

ROBERT PICKTON: For what?

CST. DANA LILLIES: Because you have some really good qualities in you and what

we’re, over, over the last um, couple of weeks that I’ve been

involved in this investigation, I’ve been speaking with some

people that know you.

ROBERT PICKTON: I’m over with, I’m finished.

CST. DANA LILLIES: And, and they see the same thing that I saw when I was talking to

you last week. You have really good qualities in you, you’re, you

are a giving person, you do care about people and I think that a lot

of people have taken advantage of that.

ROBERT PICKTON: I’m finished.

Page 126 of 252

CST. DANA LILLIES: You are going to go to jail, that, that much is true. And life as you

knew it, is over now, you’re not going to be going back to the farm

and that’s gonna be a difficult thing for you I’m sure, cause that,

that’s your whole life right? … It’s a huge change, it’s a lot to, it’s a

lot to take in, but you have to be strong…

ROBERT PICKTON: For what?

CST. DANA LILLIES: For you.

ROBERT PICKTON: Dying?

CST. DANA LILLIES: No you have to be strong for you and for the people who care about

you. Dave is your fiercest protector. He’s beside himself right now.

… I think what’s important now, is to give the families (LILLIES

POINTS TO PICTURE BOARD) some closure. Families just want

answers and you can give them those answers. It’s also your

choice to just you know, keep your mouth shut about everything

that happened, and it’s all going to ah, come to light over the next

several months, as the investigation continues. But you can put an

end to the suffering right now by giving them the closure that they,

they so desperately need. And there’s people out there who are

thinking right now that you’re some kind of a monster. They don’t

see the side that I saw, when we sat and visited for a couple of

hours there. You are a human being that has good qualities

(PICKTON SNORTS) why do, why do you do that?

ROBERT PICKTON: I’m dead.

CST. DANA LILLIES: But you’re not. You’re not dead Robert but you are at a cross roads

right now, you’re, you’re in a place where you can make the

decision of how you’re gonna proceed from here.

ROBERT PICKTON: I’m dead.

CST. DANA LILLIES: Robert you’re not dead. You’re living and breathing, you’re sitting

right here in front of me and you’re gonna go on living and

breathing. But like you know, like Bill was telling you, you can get

this, this poison out of you or you can continue to let it fester. I don’t

think you should do that. You’re shaking your head.

ROBERT PICKTON: I’m dead. I’m a walking corpse.

CST. DANA LILLIES: Why do you say that?

ROBERT PICKTON: Well when my name is mud. I’m locked up here forever. You tell

me why I don’t think that.

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CST. DANA LILLIES: Well you know people are gonna have their own perception of what

happened. But the only way that they’re going to have any real um,

idea of what happened is if you, you explain things as best as you

can. You know, I know that it’s a difficult thing that (PAUSE).

(LILLIES TOUCHES PICKTON’S LEG) Do you want to tell me

about what happened, see if it helps.

ROBERT PICKTON: What’s it gonna help, I mean I’m dead already.

CST. DANA LILLIES: It might help you feel better Robert.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, what’s it gonna do? I’m cram, nailed to the cross and…

(16:21)

(PAUSE 25 SEC)

CST. DANA LILLIES: (LILLIES TOUCHES PICKTON’S LEG) So I wasn’t here just a

minute ago um, Robert does this, this was Mona right? (LILLIES

KNOCKS ON PICTURE BOARD)

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s what they say.

CST. DANA LILLIES: Um, hum. So I, I really want to understand what happened with

Mona. I do.

ROBERT PICKTON: I didn’t do anything really.

CST. DANA LILLIES: Okay, well we, we all know that’s not the case Robert.

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s what they say now, so I mean I’m nailed to the cross

anyways.

CST. DANA LILLIES: Okay. Like, like Bill was telling you um, her DNA is all over that, that

trailer…

ROBERT PICKTON: I know, I heard that yeah.

CST. DANA LILLIES: Alright, so you understand all that, you understand that your DNA is

also with Mona (OVER TALKING)

ROBERT PICKTON: But, but I always been in there, I’ve been in there off and on but I

don’t know anything about this here.

CST. DANA LILLIES: Okay. You know what? Um, something that I don’t think Bill

mentioned to you was, was where your DNA and her DNA was

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found. He didn’t mention that did he?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know. I don’t know.

CST. DANA LILLIES: Okay. I don’t think he did mention it and your DNA was found on

the dildo that you had at the ah, connected to the end of the gun

there and that’s where her DNA was also found on the tip of that

dildo.

ROBERT PICKTON: But that doesn’t mean I did it.

CST. DANA LILLIES: Yes it does Robert. It does.

ROBERT PICKTON: Just because.

CST. DANA LILLIES: And you know what, you’re just hurting yourself and you’re hurting

your family and you’re hurting the families of these women by

continuing to deny that.

ROBERT PICKTON: I never did it.

CST. DANA LILLIES: (SIGHS) You and I both know…

ROBERT PICKTON: Look, (OVER TALKING)…

CST. DANA LILLIES: …you know what Robert, …

ROBERT PICKTON: There’s a lot of people know I had the gun.

CST. DANA LILLIES: Robert, you and I both know that’s not true (PICKTON PUTS

(16:24) HAND OVER EYES) and knowing all the things that I know about

this investigation, knowing about the kind of um, sex that you had

with these women, that doesn’t change the way that I see you, I still

see the good in you. I still see the Robert who I sat and chatted with

for, for a couple of hours. I still see the Robert who, who went out

into the barn and saw that his, his favorite calf was slaughtered as a

child. You have real feelings and that’s very clear to me. That’s not

something that a person can fake and as a person with real feelings

I know that you’re gonna do the right thing … and you know, I’d like

to share something else with you, I fully believe that people become

the way that they are for a reason. Because of things that have

happened to them in their lives and that’s what I want to

understand. We talked quite a lot the other day about, about your,

your history and about growing up on the farm. And I think that

anyone in your same set of circumstances would have wound up

doing the same things as you. And maybe if you had been raised

under the circumstances that I was raised we’d be in, in different

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seats right now. So I’m not here to judge you, I’m here to

understand you.

ROBERT PICKTON: I’m never gonna walk again.

CST. DANA LILLIES: You’re never gonna walk again? Why do you say that?

ROBERT PICKTON: Well I got two murder charges already against me.

CST. DANA LILLIES: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: And maybe more pending. So the one on top the other

eh?

CST. DANA LILLIES: Um, hum. And you know what else, that’s another way for you to, to

look at this okay. You know as well as I do, that they’re gonna

continue to find more evidence, they’re gonna continue to connect

you to more of these murders and you’re in a situation where you

can sit and wait everyday for the next um, bomb to drop or you can

sit here and, and, and accept the fact that this is something that’s

happened, something that’s in the past, you want to address it

openly, honestly and move forward in your life, because you are still

alive Robert. You may not, if I was in your situation I wouldn’t want

to be sitting there waiting everyday to see if there’s new evidence or

if there’s which one I’m going to be connected with next. I’d want to

just get it all out in the open, address it and deal with it and carry on

from there. Because all it’s gonna do is, is drag this out for yourself,

for the families and for all the investigators who are working on this

and for your family. For Linda and for Dave and for Dave’s kids.

The longer this is drawn out, the more pain it causes everyone

involved. And you told me something last week, you told me that

you want to help people. So that when it comes time that you need

help, they’re there to help you. Well here’s your chance to help

people. Here’s your chance to help these families have some

closure, to help your own family have some closure and to help you

have closure. Because I think that you have from, some demons

that you’re struggling with and by just sitting there silently, you’re

allowing those demons to, to take control. You are a human being

Robert, you deserve to be treated fairly and with respect and you

deserve to live the rest of your life.

(16:30) Don’t let the demons take over. (PAUSE 50 SEC) Remember when

we were talking last week, I could see that, that this really is having

an impact on you, I mean this is a life altering thing that you’re

going through. And the media is painting things the way that they

want to paint it, that’s what the media does. But you have a choice

about, about having a voice in that. (PICKTON SHAKES HEAD

“NO”) So I’ll tell you what we have is ah, like a big jigsaw puzzle. So

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we have a lot of pieces coming in but there’s certain pieces that

only you can fill in. And it’s really important to have those pieces so

that um, everybody will have a better understanding so that the

families will have some closure. So that your family will have some

closure. So that you don’t have to sit here waiting and wondering

what’s gonna happen in the next hour, I mean like, like my boss

was just telling you there’s this new evidence that’s come in now.

Are you hearing me? (PICKTON – SLIGHT SHAKE “NO”) You’re

shaking your head. What are you thinking Robert? (PAUSE 40

SEC) what are you thinking?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know.

CST. DANA LILLIES: Maybe I should ask you what you’re feeling, cause I imagine you’re

feeling all sorts of different things right now.

ROBERT PICKTON: I can’t get over Scott CHUBB on that…on the machine there.

CST. DANA LILLIES: What, I’m sorry, I didn’t hear you.

ROBERT PICKTON: I can’t get over Scott CHUBB that, up on the machine there.

CST. DANA LILLIES: Weren’t you surprised that Scott CHUBB came forward to us? Was

that a nod? Yeah. And you know, you helped a lot a people along

the way, you’ve given a lot of people money, you’ve been there for

other people and you know, (PICKTON PUTS HAND OVER FACE)

what I think really sucks is a lot of these people were using you to

support their drug habits. You’re there trying to help these people,

and they burn you in the end. But I’ll tell you there was I don’t know

if you’ve been watching any of the news but there’s a tip line that

we have put on the news so people with information are calling into

that number. We’re getting all kinds of information, people who

know you, people who knew you years ago, people who had certain

conversations with you and all of that stuff is, is being followed up

on as we speak. So that’s why I say there’s still more that’s gonna

be, that we’re gonna be faced with on a day to day basis. So you

can cut all that stuff off right now, and just say okay, here’s what

happened, here’s what I did and all those people will have nothing

else, won’t be able to ride your coat tails because like you were

telling me, this is big. It’s big news, frontPage news you saw it

yourself. Now are you gonna let these people who screwed you

over benefit from that?

(PAUSE 20 SEC)

ROBERT PICKTON: I can’t get over Scott CHUBB.

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CST. DANA LILLIES: Tell me about Scott. You guys good friends?

ROBERT PICKTON: I can’t get over Scott CHUBB.

CST. DANA LILLIES: Tell me about him Robert, I’m interested.

(PAUSE 20 SEC)

ROBERT PICKTON: I can’t get over it.

CST. DANA LILLIES: I’m not someone who was speaking with him but you know, that

was, that was…

ROBERT PICKTON: Who was speaking with him?

CST. DANA LILLIES: I’m not sure. But um, is Scott someone that you worked with?

ROBERT PICKTON: That was Scott CHUBB right?

CST. DANA LILLIES: I, I’m just going on what you’re saying here, cause I don’t know the

man.

ROBERT PICKTON: I think he put the video back in there again.

CST. DANA LILLIES: He put it in the other room or in the box?

ROBERT PICKTON: In the box.

CST. DANA LILLIES: Okay, well you, you saw it, so you know who it is obviously.

ROBERT PICKTON: I think it’s Scott CHUBB.

CST. DANA LILLIES: So where do you know Scott CHUBB from?

(PAUSE 20 SEC)

ROBERT PICKTON: Scott CHUBB. Fuck. (PICKTON PUTS HAND OVER FACE) I can’t

believe this. Way out now.

CST. DANA LILLIES: It hurts doesn’t it?

ROBERT PICKTON: Scott CHUBB of all guys. Of all guys, him. What is he trying to do?

CST. DANA LILLIES: Well I can’t answer that Robert but I can tell you that we’re getting

lots and lots of phone calls, so there’s gonna be other people like

Scott CHUBB.

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ROBERT PICKTON: Well Scott CHUBB. I could put him away for a long time.

(16:40)

CST. DANA LILLIES: Is that right? So you, you have some dirt on Scott do you?

ROBERT PICKTON: But that’s here nor there.

CST. DANA LILLIES: How long did you know him for?

ROBERT PICKTON: Years.

CST. DANA LILLIES: Did he work on the farm?

ROBERT PICKTON: No he worked down at the construction site. Scott, no, not

supposed to say anything.

CST. DANA LILLIES: Hum? Say anything about what?

ROBERT PICKTON: Without my lawyer present.

CST. DANA LILLIES: Um, hum. Well I think Bill also explained that’s, that’s, that’s your

choice to make. (PAUSE 25 SEC) so how is this gonna all play out

Robert?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know. I don’t know.

CST. DANA LILLIES: Well you know what? You’re the one who’s gonna make that

decision. It’s gonna play out, you know, minute by minute, hour by

hour, week by week, month by month, year by year or we can tidy it

up right now. (PAUSE 40 SEC) You know Robert, I’m, I’m, I really

would like to, to understand … will you tell me about the, the ah,

gun with the dildo on it?

ROBERT PICKTON: Well I put that on there as far as, in case I have to use it for, cause

I’m shooting boars. Well I shouldn’t talk about this, it’ll be in court

anyways right. It’s gotta go to court.

CST. DANA LILLIES: For shooting boars.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, pigs.

CST. DANA LILLIES: With a dildo on the end of it?

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, I put it on there for a silencer. But I never used it.

CST. DANA LILLIES: That sounds a little unusual.

Page 133 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, (INDECIPHERABLE) the houses are moving in.

CST. DANA LILLIES: So tell me how did Mona’s DNA get on the tip of that dildo?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know.

CST. DANA LILLIES: Yes you do. (PAUSE 30 SEC) You know Robert I’d feel a lot better

(16:45) if you’d had something to eat.

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t have to eat at all.

CST. DANA LILLIES: You have to eat sometime. We can get you whatever you want?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t feel like eating.

CST. DANA LILLIES: Does your stomach feel upset? Why don’t you feel like eating?

(PAUSE 35 SEC) Can I ask you a question?

ROBERT PICKTON: What’s that?

CST. DANA LILLIES: When you kill a woman, are you understanding why you’re doing

that or is it something that just happens?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t do that.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yes you do, Robert. (LILLIES TOUCHES PICKTON’S LEG) We

both know that. (PAUSE 2O SEC) You know I know that’s there’s

people in your life…

ROBERT PICKTON: So what’s gonna happen to me now?

CST. DANA LILLIES: Well you’re just gonna be in jail, you’re gonna be going to court on

Monday but you’re gonna be in jail for a long time.

ROBERT PICKTON: For the rest of my life right?

CST. DANA LILLIES: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: I might as well face it right now, right?

CST. DANA LILLIES: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: So I’m going to rot in jail.

CST. DANA LILLIES: You still have a life to live, it’s gonna be, it’s gonna be an altered

life.

Page 134 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: Hum.

CST. DANA LILLIES: There’s no question about that I can’t, I can’t uh lie to you about

that.

ROBERT PICKTON: So I’d going the pen, the penitentiary?

CST. DANA LILLIES: I’m not sure where you’re gonna go, but you will be going to jail

and you will continue to live, and you will adapt. It’s gonna be a big

adjustment for you but you’ll just have to take one day at a time

right. That’s all anybody can do. (PAUSE 40 SEC) which way is this

gonna go Robert? Are we gonna draw this out for years and make it

a pains taking thing, or are we gonna address it all, take your lumps

and go on with your life?

ROBERT PICKTON: Well I want to die.

CST. DANA LILLIES: You want to die, well I don’t want you to die. Your mother doesn’t

want you to die. Dave doesn’t want you to die. But they all want

closure. They don’t want to see this thing dragged out for years,

they want closure so that, not only can, so you that you can get on

with your life, but so that they can get on with their lives.

ROBERT PICKTON: What life.

CST. DANA LILLIES: Like I said you’re life is going to be different, there’s no question

about that, but it’s gonna go on and it’s not the end of the world. It

might feel like it, but it’s not. (PAUSE 40 SEC) You know what um,

when I first started doing this job, nine years ago, I saw things very

black and white. I thought you know, that there was good people

and that’s there’s bad people and that there was no middle ground.

What I’ve come to realize over the years is there’s really no such

thing as black and white, it’s vast grey area. People do things for

different reasons, sometimes they’re reasons that, that person

understands and sometimes they’re reasons that the person can’t

comprehend. That doesn’t make you a bad person. A lot of the

people that um, I’ve been talking to and that the other investigators

have been talking to say that you know, that you’re a good person,

that you like to help people. You know I was talking to your sister

Linda, she said that you were a very giving, loving person, like your

dad. She compared you to her, to your dad, she said that you guys

were a lot alike. Linda ah, I guess ah, adored her dad, your dad.

And I think that you get those, those good traits from your parents.

And somewhere for some reason, something happened, maybe in

your past or um, something compels you to do these things. But

that doesn’t completely make the, the good parts of Robert

disappear, they’re still there. And that, that all those good parts, the

Page 135 of 252

good Robert needs to go on living, needs to, to put an end to all of

this, drawn out investigation. (PAUSE 25 SEC) And from, from the

things that I’ve seen I think that you’re a person with a lot of love in

you. I look at, I saw the picture of, of your horse that

(16:55) you had mounted and it’s clear that you, you loved that animal.

You’re not an evil person, you’re a good person who’s done some

thing that, that we have to deal with. And we know that’s the truth

isn’t it Robert? (PAUSE 25 SEC) And you know what I see? I see a

person who is a hard worker, whose spent his life devoted

to that farm, who helps people no matter how down and out, helps

them, is generous and all these people that you have been there for

haven’t been there for you, and I think that’s a real shame. Now I

know the things that, that you have done, I know that you killed

Mona and I know that, that you killed many others but that, that still

doesn’t detract from the good qualities that you have.

ROBERT PICKTON: (PICKTON PICKS UP AND PUTS DOWN MONA WILSON’S

PHOTO) I don’t know her.

CST. DANA LILLIES: Okay, and that might be true, that you know her but you did kill her.

(PICKTON SHAKING HEAD “NO”) Yes you did. (PAUSE 35 SEC)

Tell me something Robert, I want to understand what it is you’re

feeling when you kill one of these women. Are you feeling angry,

are you feeling scared? (PAUSE 25 SEC) You know it’s not an

easy thing to talk about. I mean you may be worried about how

you’re gonna be viewed and maybe you’re worried about

implicating yourself further, but I’ll tell you that’s not something

that’s gonna make any difference because no matter what you say

(17:00) you are still going to go to jail. So the reason that I’m here talking to

you and the reason that Bill is taking the time to talk to you is to try

to understand and to try to help you understand yourself better and

what, what ah, what sort of triggers this, to happen. Was it

something that’s like a, a switch that just get’s clicked on and, and

you just react, or is it something that you planned for weeks in

advance? (PAUSE 30 SEC) Or is it maybe something that, that’s

not planned weeks in advance, something that just you decide

when you wake up in the morning that this is something you gonna

do today.

ROBERT PICKTON: See I don’t know her.

CST. DANA LILLIES: That’s not what I asked is it? You probably don’t know her. (LILLIES

PICKS UP HER PHOTO AND SHOWS PICKTON) Her name is

Mona WILSON, she was a prostitute, and you killed her. Now

whether or not you knew her isn’t really the issue. The reality of the

situation is that the evidence doesn’t lie, the reality of the

situation is her blood is all over that camper and it’s mixed with your

Page 136 of 252

DNA. So whether or not you knew her, where she lived, who her

parents were, whether or not she had children, that’s not what I’m

asking. (PASSES PHOTO TO PICKTON WHO PUTS IT DOWN

ON THE TABLE)

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know her.

CST. DANA LILLIES: And you never will, because she’s dead. What’s going on in your

head right now?

(PAUSE 25 SEC)

ROBERT PICKTON: I just can’t get over Scott.

CST. DANA LILLIES: Um, hum. Well like I was telling you Robert there’s more people

coming forward every day and you can bet your bottom dollar that

with this being on the front pa ah, frontPage news we’re gonna get

a lot more calls. So I want you to sit here and think for a minute

okay. I want you to sit here and think about every conversation that

you’ve ever had with anyone about how to get rid of bodies, about

people that you’ve killed, about violent sex that you’ve had. I want

you to think long and hard about that because all those people are

on the phone. Police officers are on their way to go and talk to

them. They’re riding those coat tails, and you can cut those coat

tails off right now by saying, by taking responsibility or you can draw

this out and let all the Scott CHUBB’s of the world come into the

lime light. (PAUSE 45 SEC) What are you think ah, Dave’s gonna

have to say about all this?

ROBERT PICKTON: Don’t know.

CST. DANA LILLIES: Well like I was telling you, not only is this investigation having a

tremendous impact on your life but it’s got a ripple effect and it

effects the lives of everybody around you. And the way it works is,

every time more evidence comes it’s another ripple and it, and it

washes outward and it affects everybody that cares about you and

that you care about. And ever time there’s more evidence there’s

another ripple and another ripple. What I’m saying to you is let’s

make one splash and deal with it, so that it doesn’t continue to be

drawn out. (PAUSE 20 SEC) Like I said Robert the evidence does

not lie and there’s a mountain of it and there’s more building

everyday. (PAUSE 50 SEC) (LILLIES MOVES AWAY) There’s

something I’d like for you to take a look at. I don’t know if you’ve

seen any of this ah, media footage but I can guarantee you there’s

gonna be a lot more of it today, a lot more than what we already

have. (PLAYING VIDEO) this was a couple of weeks ago.

(PLAYING MEDIA VIDEO).

Page 137 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: (INDECIPHERABLE) Oh good God.

CST. DANA LILLIES: Why do you say that? (TURNS OFF VIDEO) Hum?

ROBERT PICKTON: It’s getting more and more.

CST. DANA LILLIES: And you know something Robert, these people they want answers.

They want closure and you can give that to them. We can give it to

them eventually but you can give it to them today. Yes you can, yes

you can. You need to show these people that you’re not a cowardly

monster. I know that you’re not a cowardly monster, they don’t

know that. And these people lie in bed at night wondering if

tomorrow they’re gonna hear word, wonder if tomorrow there’s

gonna be a piece of evidence that’s going to link their daughter,

their sister, their girlfriend to your farm. You can give those

answers. You saw the number that we had up there with the tip line,

we have more calls coming in than we have investigators to deal

with them. And with each day we’re putting more and more pieces

of the puzzle together, but it’s, it’s drawing it out unnecessarily…:

Robert. Give these people the answers that they need, give them

the closure, let them go on with their lives.

(PAUSE 35 SEC)

ROBERT PICKTON: I’d like to go back to my room.

CST. DANA LILLIES: Well, you know what, that’s not gonna happen right now.

Cause there’s more things that we want to talk to you about. Are

you absorbing this are you understanding the situation? (PAUSE

25 SEC) You know better than anybody what we’re going to find at

that farm and we’re going to find it, eventually. It might not be today,

it might not be tomorrow, it might not even be six months from now.

But they’re not going to leave until they find everything and until

they have answers for those families. … Robert…

ROBERT PICKTON: I can’t help you.

CST. DANA LILLIES: Yes you can. Yes you can. (PICKTON PUTS HAND OVER EYES)

Why do you say no? Robert why do you say no? Is it because

you’re afraid or is it because you just don’t care?

SGT. Bill FORDY: All right, see Don or something I’ll be back in a second. (LILLIES

LEAVES- TAKES TOILET PAPER) Thanks. How are you Rob?

How’s things?

ROBERT PICKTON: Okay.

Page 138 of 252

SGT. Bill FORDY: Good, um, a couple of things. I want to ah, share with you. You’re

okay, you hungry or anything? You hungry or anything?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t feel like eating, I mean I don’t feel like even eating, I feel like

dying.

SGT. Bill FORDY: You feel like dying. Okay. Um,…

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t want to eat or anything.

SGT. Bill FORDY: You’re not gonna eat. Okay, you don’t have to, that ah, that’s up

to you, I just wanted to offer, that’s all. (FORDY TAKES A DRINK)

Um, last time I was in talking to you, Jim came to get me and told

me that ah, another person had just called in who was ah, a friend

of yours. First thing I want to do is I’m gonna play that for you okay.

Before I do that though, I just want to play this first.

ROBERT PICKTON: Who’s the person that phoned, who’s this?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Just a second, you’re ahead of me, you’re ahead of me. I made a

mistake I think I called CHUBB’s Dwayne.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Actually, I think he goes by Scott. You were right, so I apologize for

that, let me clarify that. I just want to make sure that I understood

some, one thing that he said then I’m gonna play this other tape for

you. Okay? (PLAYING TAPE) (CHUBB)

ROBERT PICKTON: Dinah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Dinah TAYLOR. (PICKTON OPENS BOTTLE AND TAKES A

DRINK)

(PLAYING TAPE 2 MIN 30 SEC)

ROBERT PICKTON: Right.

(PLAYING TAPE – APPROX 1 MIN)

ROBERT PICKTON: He, hurt who?

(TAPE PLAYING – 15 SEC)

ROBERT PICKTON: Lynn, Lynn. Ten thousand dollars.

Page 139 of 252

(TAPE PLAYING – 2 MIN 1O SEC) (PICKTON YAWNING)

ROBERT PICKTON: (INDECIPHERABLE). . . called the house? Can I talk to him?

(TAPE PLAYING 20 SEC) well no.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Telephone.

(TAPE PLAYING – 40 SEC)

ROBERT PICKTON: Run that by me again…

(17:30)

SGT. Bill FORDY: You get the idea right. Do you have ah, do you have friend by the

name of ah, Andy BELL? Do you remember Andy? His name is

Andrew BELLWOOD but also known as Andy BELL, lived with you

for about three months, worked on your ah, farm. And ah, yeah,

(INDECIPHERABLE) years. Um, he’s been interviewed today.

ROBERT PICKTON: Who’s he?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Andy BELL, you’ll recognize the voice. Got the tape right

there. I want you to ah, just a second. I want you to listen to this

tape okay, Rob.

ROBERT PICKTON: Andy BELL.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah, worked on your farm. He’s gonna be a witness.

(PLAYING AUDIO TAPE)

SGT. Bill FORDY: He’s in Alberta now.

ROBERT PICKTON: Who? What’s his name?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Andrew BELL.

(TAPE PLAYING – 35 SEC)

ROBERT PICKTON: Well this guy out to lunch.

(TAPE PLAYING – 1 MIN 20 SEC)

ROBERT PICKTON: He what?

(TAPE PLAYING – 1 MIN 5 SEC)

ROBERT PICKTON: That (INDECIPHERABLE) guy is out to lunch.

Page 140 of 252

(TAPE PLAYING – 1 MIN)

ROBERT PICKTON: Oh. Bull!

(TAPE PLAYING – 30 SEC)

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, right.

(TAPE PLAYING – 20 SEC, TAPE TURNED OFF)

ROBERT PICKTON: (LAUGHING) Funny stories in there aren’t they?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Well I mean I told you Rob, a lot of people are calling in now. Um,

you know, there’s a, a lot of people that have an interest in this

now. Ah, some of your friends even have called in. Now speaking

with Dave, as you know, Dave’s been interviewed and ah, ah, a

number of times.

ROBERT PICKTON: Today?

SGT. Bill FORDY: I, I think he’s being interviewed again today, there’s a number of

investigators here. But speaking with Dave, one of things that Dave

has said ah, I, I want to clarify it with you is that um, the inhaler that

was found, the one with the shiny case, that you found that

somewhere alright. Where did you find that?

ROBERT PICKTON: If I know what it looked like ah, because I’m going back awhile.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay, well you must remember because you told Dave it was in a

shiny case. Right, that’s the same one I’m talking about.

ROBERT PICKTON: It was over a year ago.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay, well where was it. Where did you find it?

ROBERT PICKTON: (PAUSE 16 SEC) That’s a long time ago.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah, obviously though it’s an important, it’s an important um, …

ROBERT PICKTON: It’s a long time ago.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah, you found it in, in a glove box of a car, what colour was the

car? Maybe that will help refresh your memory.

ROBERT PICKTON: Dark grey.

Page 141 of 252

SGT. Bill FORDY: It was a grey car okay. What was the make of the car? It was in a

shiny case, is that why you even picked it up?

ROBERT PICKTON: No it was on, it was on the floor, the floorboard of the passenger

side.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Floor board of the passenger side. Was it in the glove box? Okay

ah, a grey car, what kind of car was it obviously you’ve very good

with cars. (FORDY TURNS OFF TV)

ROBERT PICKTON: But there’s so many.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah, but this is obviously, it was nice that’s why you picked it up

right? Is that what, was it by itself, was it with something else?

ROBERT PICKTON: I can’t remember.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay, so what you do remember though is it was on the floorboard,

it was on the floor on the passenger side of the grey car and it was

in a shiny case and that was why you remembered it. Was, was

there anything else beside it, was there another, try to think back,

was there something else that was with that um, …

ROBERT PICKTON: There was something else with it.

SGT. Bill FORDY: …shiny case.

ROBERT PICKTON: There was something else with it too. I can’t remember

(INDECIPHERABLE)

SGT. Bill FORDY: It was in that grey car hey, okay. You know we’ve got, it’s

interesting that you say that because you told a number of people

about that who ah, actually I’m, I’m thinking you might have made a

mistake actually because a lot of people are coming forward now. I

told you some people are, are coming in and obviously ah, …

ROBERT PICKTON: That guy’s off the deep end of this because…

SGT. Bill FORDY: No, I mean you know what, I’m not the judge alright.

ROBERT PICKTON: I know, I know.

SGT. Bill FORDY: I’m just the guy that ah, is here talking to you. Some people

obviously are coming to your defense. Like Linda PLASMAN, do

you know Linda.

ROBERT PICKTON: Lynn.

Page 142 of 252

SGT. Bill FORDY: That name doesn’t mean anything to me but…

ROBERT PICKTON: Nancy PLASMAN.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay, I’ve got it as Linda maybe Nancy’s her middle name.

ROBERT PICKTON: Nancy.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Pardon me?

ROBERT PICKTON: Nancy.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: She was staying with my, staying at my place.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay um, is it possible you told her it was in a grey car then

and she’s mistaken.

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Ah, okay, cause she’s come forward I guess and suggested that

you said, you told her that it was in a red car.

ROBERT PICKTON: Ah no, I think ah, everybody was referring to the red car full of

clothes.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay, that’s not where the, you found this in a grey car. Okay, now

when you picked up that inhaler do you remember anything specific

about it?

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s how it looks pretty expensive.

SGT. Bill FORDY: (LAUGHING) yeah, I guess so eh. Of course, that’s why you picked

it up.

ROBERT PICKTON: (INDECIPHERABLE) It’s expensive.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Now what did you do with it?

ROBERT PICKTON: I phoned up another party and they said it was worth around four

hundred bucks.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay, but what did you did with that inhaler, did you take it inside?

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

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SGT. Bill FORDY: And do you remember the name on it?

ROBERT PICKTON: Not, not off hand.

SGT. Bill FORDY: The inhaler eh? Okay. Um, you obviously know, (PICKTON:

(INDECIPHERABLE) pardon me?

ROBERT PICKTON: Not off hand, there’s a name on it.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah. Could you just, think, try to think back and see if you

remember it.

ROBERT PICKTON: I remember dates but I can’t remember.

SGT. Bill FORDY: You remember, what date was that, that you found it? What dates

were on the inhaler?

ROBERT PICKTON: I can’t remember that. I can’t remember that, I mean myself, I mean

it’s, but then, that doesn’t even fizz on me really.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: Cause I was, I mean, when I phoned over there he says it’s

outdated or not and I says I don’t think it is outdated, I think there’s

one little cartridge in there or something.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Do you remember who you phoned, did you phone a pharmacist.

I guess.

ROBERT PICKTON: No I phoned ah, um, Lee and Lee was telling me.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Lee?

ROBERT PICKTON: I know her as Lee, I know her name as Lee.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Is she a pharmacist or is she a doctor or?

ROBERT PICKTON: No. No.

SGT. Bill FORDY: (INDECIPHERABLE)

ROBERT PICKTON: …she, she, she’s up there pretty high.

SGT. Bill FORDY: But she works in the, in the business.

ROBERT PICKTON: No, she, she knows all about drugs and everything else.

Page 144 of 252

SGT. Bill FORDY: Oh, okay. She’s a drug dealer.

ROBERT PICKTON: No, yes, no. Yes and no.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yes and no.

ROBERT PICKTON: I mean she, she works with ah, she, she’s doctor’s a degree and

everything else.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Ah, okay, PHD.

ROBERT PICKTON: So, so she knows what’s, what’s what.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Alright. Okay. So you told ah, your one friend then, that it was in a

red car.

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Is that correct or no?

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. Bill FORDY: That’s not correct. Okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: The red car came in, when the last shipment came in.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay. So you never told anybody then, that it was in a red car?

Okay. You sure about that? Okay. So you’re recollection is that it

was found in a grey car and it was by itself, there’s nothing else

there.

ROBERT PICKTON: No, there was something else there.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay, what was it?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay, I want you, I want you to think about it.

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s going back.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah, but I mean obviously that’s an expensive inhaler…

Page 145 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: It’s going back almost a year and a half ago.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah, cause you told Dave about it, right.

ROBERT PICKTON: Oh yes.

SGT. Bill FORDY: You told Dave you found it.

ROBERT PICKTON: Oh yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah, what did you tell Dave, do you remember that?

Unless Dave’s lying.

ROBERT PICKTON: I never did, I never even told Dave.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah, well unless, are you telling me Dave’s lying to us then?

ROBERT PICKTON: No, I mean I don’t think Dave really knows.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay. Dave’s telling us that you told him.

ROBERT PICKTON: I told him I found, found it in the car, I didn’t tell him what kind of

car. Yeah, that’s true. And he presumed it’s a red car because it’s

full of clothes all this. We always talking about a red car.

SGT. Bill FORDY: So Dave’s not lying to us then.

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay, well. . .

ROBERT PICKTON: (INDECIPHERABLE)

SGT. Bill FORDY: . . . what else was with it?

ROBERT PICKTON: I think a purse was scattered around.

SGT. Bill FORDY: A purse.

ROBERT PICKTON: I think it was, I’m not sure. I’m not sure. I’m not sure. I’m not sure.

I’m going back a long time here, we just only playing with junk I

mean.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: So I don’t know.

Page 146 of 252

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay. So you told Dave then that it was in a car and you think

there might have been a purse there.

ROBERT PICKTON: There might have been, yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: What colour was the purse?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know, black probably.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Black eh, what did you do with it?

ROBERT PICKTON: I think it stayed in the car.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Stayed in the car.

ROBERT PICKTON: I think, I’m not sure.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Alright. So you took the inhaler out and never took the purse out?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know, I can’t remember. There’s so much stuff I went

through.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: And I just, like I said I just moved vehicles around all the time.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah, but I mean, the fact that the purse is there obviously, I see a

purse in an empty car, I look to see if there’s money in it, so you

obviously…

ROBERT PICKTON: No, no there’s no money in it, because it had all been cleaned out.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Ah, okay. So the inhaler is there, . . .

ROBERT PICKTON: (INDECIPHERABLE)

SGT. Bill FORDY: . . . what was in the wallet? What was in the purse, the black purse?

ROBERT PICKTON: Probably a condoms or whatever.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Condoms, okay. How many condoms?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know, I don’t know. You’re asking me something what I don’t

know anything about. We’re I mean, I go through so much stuff in

there.

Page 147 of 252

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay, so you, you, you took the purse out…

ROBERT PICKTON: No, no I didn’t say I took the purse out.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Oh, you left it in there, you took the inhaler out…

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t, I can’t remember.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Well obviously you took the inhaler out cause it was worth four

hundred dollars.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, yeah looks ah, looks expensive so I says I’m gonna open

that and that’s it.

SGT. Bill FORDY: So you phoned up Lee, what’s Lee’s last name? The Dr, the

dentist, the PHD.

ROBERT PICKTON: I can’t, can’t help you with that.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay, what’s her phone number, I’m sorry?

ROBERT PICKTON: I can’t help you with that neither.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay, you can’t remember it.

ROBERT PICKTON: Ah, she moved to a different ah, different place.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay where, where did she work?

ROBERT PICKTON: She doesn’t.

SGT. Bill FORDY: I’m sorry what was this? Okay, you told me she had her PHD.

ROBERT PICKTON: No, she, she’s up there pretty high.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Ah okay, and what company was she working for?

ROBERT PICKTON: She’s doesn’t. She doesn’t work.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Ah, okay but she’s got ah, like a Master Degree or PHD or

something? In what, do you remember?

ROBERT PICKTON: Of any, any I mean anything, doctor stuff yes.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay. How do you spell her first name?

ROBERT PICKTON: Lee, L-E-E.

Page 148 of 252

SGT. Bill FORDY: And her, her last name? Just think about it for a second.

ROBERT PICKTON: I’m been trying to think about it all day.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Ah, okay cause she can maybe help your story out a little bit.

Um, and what’s ah, her phone number? Where did she li, where did

she work?

ROBERT PICKTON: She didn’t.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay, where did she live?

ROBERT PICKTON: Off of Harris Road.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Off of Harris Road okay, what colour was the building?

ROBERT PICKTON: You’re asking me the impossible.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Well I mean she’s obviously a very good friend of yours, somebody

that you call about something important like this so.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, but that’s before ah, a everybody know her address

everything else, so she wants, she wants to keep herselfs quiet.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah, this is, this is the most important day of your life. Let’s be

honest.

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know what her last name is.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay. So you don’t know Lee’s last name.

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know if she’s using a married name or her maiden name

neither.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Let’s, let’s be honest you don’t want to tell me Lee’s last name.

ROBERT PICKTON: No I don’t, know…

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay. (OVER TALKING)

ROBERT PICKTON: He, he got ah, she got a son named Rocky.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Rocky. Make movies about guy’s like that. Ah, okay. So you found

the inhaler in the glove box…

ROBERT PICKTON: No, on the floor.

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SGT. Bill FORDY: On the floor. Cause Dave told us you found it in the glove box.

ROBERT PICKTON: Okay, okay.

SGT. Bill FORDY: So…

ROBERT PICKTON: Close enough but I mean I think it was on the floor but I’m not …

SGT. Bill FORDY: I mean he’s, he’s given the exact words but I mean.

ROBERT PICKTON: Okay, we’ll, let’s say in the glove box then.

SGT. Bill FORDY: No I mean I, it’s important that I, we talk about what you remember.

ROBERT PICKTON: I think, I think it was on the floor.

SGT. Bill FORDY: On the floor okay. And you think there was a purse there, a black

purse ah, do you remember what was in the purse?

ROBERT PICKTON: I think some needles, some ah, I don’t know.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Condoms, you said you there was condoms.

ROBERT PICKTON: Probably condoms.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Needles God that’s scary. Okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know. We’re going back a long time here.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah, we are. We’re going back right to ah, when Sereena was

killed. Sereena ABOTSWAY. Obviously you know that, that was

Sereena’s inhaler.

ROBERT PICKTON: Sereena, who’s that?

SGT. Bill FORDY: (FORDY MOVES OVER, TAPS ON FIRST PHOTO AND MOVES

BACK) Okay, and that’s obviously the inhaler that we recovered.

Ah, it’s dated July 19th, alright. And that as you know, that was ah,

leaked out to the media so, (POINTS TO FIRST PICTURE) you

took the inhaler in and you, you didn’t take anything else in.

ROBERT PICKTON: I can’t remember.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay you didn’t, you know, you might have taken her purse in then

or not?

Page 150 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know. I might have.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Her purse and the condoms. Okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: I might have ah, because of any, it might have been everything was

in her purse, I don’t know.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: I’m going back awhile here.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah, well it’s only, it’s not that long. You’re doin’, you’re doin’ a

good job, thanks, I appreciate that. Um, so Sereena then

disappeared on July 19th, that’s the day she picked up her inhaler

right, and ah,…

ROBERT PICKTON: It looked fairly new when I, when I…

SGT. Bill FORDY: It was brand new. It was brand new, it was the same day she got it.

ROBERT PICKTON: Oh really.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Which is probably why it makes sense, you thought it was so, it was

so expensive right. It makes sense to me, I can understand how

you would think that. Okay. The, the thing that’s interesting about

Sereena’s inhaler ah, being in your house, and ah, the fact that

she’s never been there, right.

ROBERT PICKTON: She hasn’t been there.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know her really.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah, that’s great um, but I have to tell you her DNA’s all over your

house. It’s all over clothing, I’ll tell you something else, you’re

DNA’s on top of it so um, can’t argue with it, you’re done on that.

We talked earlier about ah, Mona’s DNA and how the fact you’re

DNA is mixed with her DNA. The same thing with Sereena, and in

addition to her inhaler as being there and ah, her ID being there.

Her DNA is all over the place. Her blood is all over the place, your

DNA is with her DNA. Okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s impossible.

SGT. Bill FORDY: No it’s not. It’s, it’s there. Okay and um, one of the things that’s

very, very interesting about that, is you know, your DNA’s with

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Mona, it’s intermixed, you DNA’s with Sereena it’s intermixed, her

inhaler’s there and you know what, the reason you made up that

story about the inhaler was because it was leaked out of our office.

The thing the, the officer didn’t know, that in, that ah, leaked that

evidence about the inhaler, was that your blood was everywhere

too. And…

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, but that, that was when I got knifed.

SGT. Bill FORDY: And that never got out. Now you’re, you’re talkin’ about ———

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah, that’s a different incident.

ROBERT PICKTON: But it’s still my blood.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah. But your, your, your blood is intermixed also with Sereena’s

the girl in number one there. So not only ah, you’re finished on that

one, you’re finished on the other one as well. So in actual fact you

know, how you’re charged with two murders, okay. One of them is

Mona WILSON, the other one is Sereena, they’re both really ah,

solid, strong cases. I’m gonna tell you something else though. Ah,

in addition to the DNA of those two girls, okay. And DNA is

transferred in lots of ways okay, Rob. It’s transferred in saliva, it’s

transferred in hair, it’s transferred in spit, it ah, blood, ah, bodily

fluids. In addition to Sereena’s DNA, in addition to Mona’s DNA,

there’s eight other female’s DNA in your house. You know, that are

still being profiled, that’s in addition to all the other witnesses that

are coming in. There’s DNA for, there’s hair there that hasn’t been

analyzed as well, that looks like it’s been ripped out of girls scalp

where there, you know, there’s been arguments and, and fights.

They’re going through not only the trailer ah, that you live in but

also the camper as well. The camper where Mona was ah,

recovered, they’re going through that as well to see what other hair

samples are there. Cause there’s lots of hair there with the bulbs on

it. What happens is when you pull the bulb out of someone’s head,

you pull the hair out of someone’s scalp, there’s a bulb on the end

and that contains DNA. So in addition to Mona’s DNA…

ROBERT PICKTON: How would…

SGT. Bill FORDY: …mixed with your DNA, and Sereena’s DNA mixed with your DNA

there’s also DNA of eight other women. And there’s, there’s hair of

who knows how many other women, that’s still being analyzed. Um,

tore right out of the scalp, all the garbage is being analyzed,

everything you know. This, it’s interesting that this guy calls in and

V(6)

Page 152 of 252

says that ah, you said after you killed some of the girls you fed

them to the pigs.

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s a crock of shit.

SGT. Bill FORDY: You know what, that’s interesting if it, if in fact it’s true cause if it’s

not true then it’s no big deal. If you’ve just buried them all under the

townhouses or …

ROBERT PICKTON: Oh yeah, right.

SGT. Bill FORDY: And you know, in the property there. They’re still gonna get found

because we’re digging there. But if you did feed them to the pigs

their DNA comes out the pig, the pig shit and you probably know

there’s a case just over in England where they did that you know,

where they fed a guy to a pig and this, the pig shit out the DNA.

You know, so even if you did do that, you know, those pig troughs

and things like that, there’s, it leaks into the ground, the soil can be

analyzed all that stuff so it ah, doesn’t matter, it doesn’t affect

anything. It doesn’t affect ah, the degradation of the DNA. The fact I

guess, that they’re willing to spend millions and millions of dollars

ah, on this investigation, on this search, in my, in my mind anyway,

is very interesting because what it says is that, there is ah, a

dogged determination to find the truth. That the investigators that

are assigned to this case are going to overturn every rock, to look

under every rock, to look under ever stone um, seize every exhibit

they can. You know, they’ve got an exhibit tracking system, right

now they’ve got a brand new ah, computer system out there

specifically designed for this investigation. All the highest tech um,

ah, techniques are being brought in. I talked earlier there about ah,

today about what I thought I was telling you about Sereena you

might have thought I was talking about Roxanne.

ROBERT PICKTON: Who?

SGT. Bill FORDY: About Sereena. I was talking about Sereena. We know the day July

19th, that she picked up that inhaler okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s, that’s, that what I said, around ah…

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah, you know the interesting thing is though, she was on the

Methadone program and she had to pick up her Methadone

everyday, she was never seen again after the 19th, she was at your

place. We’re gonna be able to show download everything to show

that she never left your property as well, that you killed her.

Indisputable evidence Rob that you took her, that you, you’re also

responsible for her. Now you’re probably sitting there right now, and

Page 153 of 252

you’re probably asking yourself what’s in it for me right now. What’s

the, what do I do here now, to save face, how can I possibly,

possibly come out of this situation right now, and, and keep it

together. Because you’re, you’re thinking that you know you’ve had

a pretty hard life, shit happens right, you know. It’s meant to be, it’s

meant to be hey, hey, my, my, rock and roll will never die. And quite

frankly you are a survivor. You told me earlier today how you’ve

been attacked by a black bear. You were attacked by wild pigs or

by pigs on your property. You’ve been attacked by crazy hookers,

tried to kill you, ROBERT PICKTON you quite frankly you are a

survivor. You have been able to come out of everything that

anybody has ever thrown at you, you’re a hard working guy that has

never in your life got one ounce of respect or recognition. And you

will come out of this I am confident that you will survive this. You

will do your crime, you will do your time but you will survive.

Because you, my friend you are a survivor. You can take on black

bears, you can take on wild boars, you can take on crazed hookers,

you can survive this. So you’re asking yourself what is the up side

for me here. The upside quite frankly Robert is you can go to jail on

two conditions. You can go to jail with respect, with respect of

yourself and with the other people you’re gonna be in jail with and

other people that are gonna read the papers or you can go to jail

with no respect. No self-respect, nobody caring about who Robert

PICKTON is, cause you can go to jail on either set of terms with

respect, or without respect. And you know, I wonder what you’re

gonna do and I don’t know what the answer to that is because

you’ve lived you’re whole life and no ones ever respected you. You

told me about how you got on that tractor that day with blisters and

puss running out of your leg, how you persevered through that

cause you are clearly a survivor. How you survived that and yet

Rob, no one has ever shown you the decency or respect that you

deserved. The irony of it is this is the first time in your life, that

you’ve ever been recognized. Right now you’re as big as the Pope.

You know, Christ you know, you’re given the same amount of

media coverage as Bin Laden got. This is the first time in your life,

that people are actually noticing you. All the good things that you’ve

done in your life and no ones ever paid you any respect for that. So

now you’re in a situation where you can either have respect or you

can have no respect. You can go back to the way you were. Shit

(18:00) happens, back when life was good. (HAND COVERING EYES) The

other aspect that you need to think about Rob, is this investigation

is costing a million dollars a month. One million dollars per month,

which isn’t a lot of money but on the other hand it is a lot of money

when you consider that they’re gonna be there another year. So in

addition to having some respect, the respect of the people you’ve

got look at one, yourself, two the people you’re gonna be in jail with

and three the people that are gonna read about you in the papers.

Page 154 of 252

You can save us a lot of money, you can be a hero, by taking us to

where those girls are. Cause you took Sereena, and you took Mona

and you can take us to them, and/or any other girls cause like I said

to you Rob, I don’t think you killed all fifty but I do think that you are

very logical. Okay, you’re like me, I see a situation, I analyze and I

say okay, what’s the best way to deal with the situation. And right

now you see this situation, you realize okay, the police have my

DNA mixed with her DNA, I’m gonna go away now I need to de, to

deal with what’s best. Cause there’s two ways to deal with it. I could

deal with it one way, I can be up front, stand up be brave. Or I can

deal with it another way because you know what, we talked about

the little boy that cries wolf. He’s never believed. Now when they

start looking at the missing kids, they’re gonna look at you too Rob.

Was it just the hookers, or was it the hookers and the little kids?

That’s what they’re gonna say, was he good, was he crazy, was he

crazy or was he good? And I don’t know Rob, maybe you are crazy,

you know, because I’ll quite frankly there are people that are gonna

say you’re crazy, that you’re a wacko. That’s you’re a shell of a

person, that is just a wacko, that wouldn’t care who he killed old,

young, prostitutes. There are people that will say that about you.

But there are also people that would, that might say you know what,

ROBERT PICKTON was a hero. When he knew that his day was over

he at least had the decency to end it quickly. Because they’re

gonna dig down everywhere on that property Rob. If they have to

go under the townhouses they will, they’re gonna sift through every

piece of stone, every piece of dirt, they’re gonna get all the bones

out of there.

ROBERT PICKTON: What makes you think there’s even bones even in there?

SGT. Bill FORDY: No well, I don’t know that Rob. I do know that you were responsible

for taking those lives. (PAUSE) And if those bones have been

mixed in and moved somewhere else, then I want you to take me

there. Rob, that is what I want you to do. And you’re asking yourself

why should I do this? I know you’re saying to yourself right now,

what’s in it for me? If you don’t do this Rob, your side of the story is

never gonna be told. Okay, cause people aren’t gonna believe it.

The media is gonna paint their own story and it’s not gonna be the

truth. If you want your side of the story to be told I’m the person to

tell it to. That is what, that is if that is what you want to do. Because

you have killed Sereena okay, and you have killed Mona and you

know, we can’t change that. And you know, I don’t know you’ve

said to me here today a number of times if you could change the

past you wouldn’t. I don’t know if you mean that or not.

ROBERT PICKTON: I didn’t do anything.

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SGT. Bill FORDY: You, you did. Okay, how do you explain to me, (FORDY LEANS

(18:05) FORWARD) I want you to explain to me how Mona, we’ll go with

Mona’s first. How Mona’s blood is mixed with your blood? (PAUSE

20 SEC) I would like you to explain to me Rob, how your DNA is

mixed with Mona’s DNA?

(PAUSE 1 MIN 20 SEC)

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know. I don’t know. Just because she was on my property

everything else, I don’t know how it got mixed up or whatever, I, I

don’t know how I got set up on this here.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay. That’s, that’s a good answer. The, you know…

ROBERT PICKTON: I was never in that trailer.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay. I want you to explain to me, how Mona’s DNA got on the

dildo. The .22 dildo.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, because in my bottom drawer in my, in my ah, trailer. Now

how it got ah, I, I’m not sure. I’m not sure. Unless somebody else

trying to set me up. I’m never in that trailer.

Sgt Bill FORDY: What trailer are you talking about?

ROBERT PICKTON: Or in the motor home. I haven’t been in there for quite a spell. Quite

a spell.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay, so what you’re telling me Rob and I’m a logical guy okay.

(FORDY STANDS UP) Now I’m just gonna you know, maybe I

need, what I need to do is see it. Maybe that’ll help me out okay.

I’m not sure so let’s, this is the DNA chart okay. (NEW FLIP

CHART WRITTEN ON 18:08) Let’s call this Mona, Robert ah,

Sereena and we’ll put here X for ah, if you able to give it an

explanation okay. So we have Mona’s DNA and Robert’s DNA and

we have them mixed. And that is mixed together and we don’t have

an explanation right? Okay. We have Sereena’s DNA, Robert’s

DNA and we have them mixed do I have an explanation? Can you

explain to me how any of your DNA would be with her DNA? Her

blood that is in your place.

ROBERT PICKTON: I got knifed back in ‘97.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay, that’s ———, you’re talking about ——– when you got

stabbed, your DNA. So you can’t explain that either can you.

ROBERT PICKTON: No I said I got knifed back in ‘97.

V(6) V(6)

Page 156 of 252

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay I’m talking about mixed with her DNA.

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know what all…

SGT. Bill FORDY: So there’s no explanation for that right. Is that, is that what you’re

telling me? Okay that’s fine. So then we’ve got the dildo .22. We’ve

got Mona’s DNA, Rob’s DNA in combination. And what’s slash,

your explanation of that. I’m sorry?

ROBERT PICKTON: There’s a set up here somewhere’s.

SGT. Bill FORDY: So you’ve got no explanation of that either, do you, okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: (SHAKES HEAD “NO”)

SGT. Bill FORDY: So I’ve got one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine check

marks, and no explanations.

ROBERT PICKTON: It don’t look good does it?

SGT. Bill FORDY: It doesn’t look good does it? Ah, you know, one thing that I know is

that when people are in a situation like you’re in right now and

you know what you’d have to trust me ah, that people are, there are

lots of people coming in and you know you maybe thinking to

yourself, jeez you know what Bill I don’t know you that well, I don’t

want to trust you. (FORDY SITS DOWN) First of all you’re a

policeman and I don’t know if, if that’s what you’re thinking, but I

want you to know that I haven’t lied to you about anything here

today. And no policeman in the world is ever gonna try to set

somebody up. (PICKTON YAWNS) Okay. Nobody else has your

DNA, nobody else has Mona’s DNA, nobody else has Sereena’s

DNA. Alright, their DNA is unique to them. This isn’t a set up. You

know what, if it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, it is a

duck. If it looks like a pig, it squeals like a pig, it is a pig. Rob you

are at the most important day of your life, you’re at the crossroads

of your life. Right now you’re going down the road, you can go this

way or you can go this way. One way you have respect and self-

preservation another way you’re just a little liar. If you decide to tell

me what happened, nobody can ever take that away from you.

Nobody can ever, ever take that away from you, that self-respect

that you’re gonna have. Alright. And if you look at all these check

marks and you’re a logical guy, there’s only one conclusion.

ROBERT PICKTON: (YAWNING)

SGT. Bill FORDY: If it looks like a pig, squeals like a pig, smells like a pig, it is a pig.

Page 157 of 252

Rob. And right now you’re asking yourself, how do I deal with this,

what do I do? It’s painfully obvious what you need to do Rob. It is

painfully obvious. Out of everything that you’ve done you can still

be a hero at some level, by resolving this, one hundred percent.

You know what, you know how Goldie got kicked by those two little

fillies, and as a result of it you had to take her in to the taxidermist

and get her head stuffed. Remember you told me that, how Goldie

got hurt? See these two little fillies here, Mona, Sereena, these two

fillies have just kicked you. You’re done. Just like you couldn’t fix

her, you couldn’t fix Goldie, couldn’t bring her back and make her

the way she was. Make him the way he was, you can never be the

way you were again. Now we need to talk about the upside. How

can this work better for you? How can you get some respect? How

can people really know what happened with ROBERT PICKTON?

There’s only one way for that to happen Rob and that’s for you to

tell me. For you to say Bill, this is what happened. Very matter of

fact, very business like (PAUSE). Because it’s not a matter of fact,

if you, if you think for a second that you’re being quiet um, ah, is

gonna help somehow help you through this, okay. Rob, and I’m not

threatening you or anything like that, because you’re the one who

has to live with yourself. At the end of the day I can go home and I

can respect myself and look forward to the rest of my life. You need

to start thinking about the rest of your life now. (DRAWING ON

CHART) What is the best way for you to live the rest of your life

cause this is a highway, it’s gonna go one way or it’s gonna go

another. I’ve just shown, you’ve seen the map, nine to zero. Eight

other female DNA profiles, habits, see this has only been ten days,

twelve days Rob, since this broke. Since the Tuesday prior, it’s the

sixth. And there’s ten profiles, two of which, which you’re mixed

with. (FORDY MOVES OVER TO PICTURE BOARD AND TAPS

ON PICTURE 1) Sereena ABOTSWAY was never seen again after

the 19th, the day she picked up that inhaler that you have. She was

never seen again. So when you do the math, Rob it’s crystal clear

what the right thing to do is. A couple of days ago you know, I got

(18:17) home from work late, Rob and ah, my wife said go talk to Liam. I

said why? She said because he called Jim an asshole. Jim is my

neighbour Rob, he’s a very nice man, but ah, I’ve been working late

a lot lately and I haven’t been home much, and I went up to Liam’s

room, and he was in his bedroom and I said Liam I need to talk to

you. He said, okay. And he said, I said mom said that you called

Jim an asshole. He said yeah. I said, why did you do that? He

started to cry. I said Liam I need to, I need you to answer my

question. Why did you call Jim an asshole? And he said because

when I was walking to school, I had slept in ah, that morning alright,

because I was late getting home. Jim was swearing about my

police car being parked on the sidewalk. So my son heard Liam

say, heard Jim say, complain that my car was parked on the

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sidewalk, and he says, and Jim says, or my, Liam said Jim you’re

an asshole and my wife heard it. And until I went up and I sat down

and he explained to me why he said that Jim was an asshole, my

wife didn’t understand. But when he explained what happened and

understood then she forgave him and I forgave him and I hugged

him and I said okay, Liam thanks for explaining that to me and I

went downstairs and watched some TV and then I told my wife. Up

until he explained it, my wife just thought he was be, ah, being a

bad kid and misbehaving. Because in the absence of an

explanation people always think the worst. And that’s what people

are gonna think of you Rob, the worst and the absence of you

giving an explanation. This is not about smoke and mirrors, this is

about logic, it’s crystal clear right there, look at those check marks.

It’s right there, DNA, DNA, DNA. There’s witnesses that see these

people, (FORDY TAPS 1ST PHOTO ON THE BOARD) she was in a

transition house in Surrey with another girl that’s on this poster. And

a friend of her’s called in, gave a statement, you may or may not

know her friend, Yolanda DYCK, DICK. She actually saw you and

Sereena together. That’s right. She saw pictures of you in the paper

and felt it was important to phone in. This is not gonna stop Rob,

people are gonna keep calling in, witnesses are gonna keep calling

in, they’re gonna keep finding DNA. You’re friends are gonna keep

turning on you, you can stop all that right now. You can turn all that

around if you want. All that if you want, and you know in terms of

understanding, you know I will give you some credit. You know,

none of these bodies have been found out in public places or in

schoolyards where kids can find them. You know, they’re not in the

middle of a shopping cart, in the middle of a parking lot, where mom

and her two kids on their way there, they were off to Safe Way can

find these kids. You know, you’ve taken the decency to, to get rid of

them in a good means. You know, you never meant to shock the

community, you know, at least I think that’s the case and I hope that

is the case, and you’re the only one who can tell me if that is the

case Rob. They weren’t left out “to rot” like pigs in ah, in a, ah,

middle of a parking lot, in the sun. Well there actually is the one guy

who ah, drove by the one day and saw the raven pecking on a

native girl, bloated and you came out and yelled at him he said he

was bird watching. And he left and came back and her body was

gone.

ROBERT PICKTON: What?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah. There’s all kinds of people calls coming in now.

ROBERT PICKTON: A raven.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Yeah, like a crow, black crow, black bird.

Page 159 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: Picking on a somebody.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Picking on a girl yeah. And you came out and shooed him off the

yard, he was bird watching. It’s not gonna stop. (PICKTON TAKES

A DRINK) The funniest thing is ah, I hope this isn’t the case, that

you think that you know, you’re gonna, your butt saved by

somebody like Dinah TAYLOR or something like that, who ah, was

interviewed today and she’s actually in Thunder Bay now, at a

Reserve there. Ah, who tells us that she’s the one who actually told

you the story about where to say you got something, something

from her. She was gonna say was ah, at a hotel or something. So

these lies, you know, once you start adding them all in with the

check marks um, paint a pretty disparaging picture for you Rob.

And now the logical thing, the logical part of you needs to look at

that and say I am done here, here, here, and here, and here. Now

what is the best thing for me to do. Do I go through door number

one or do I go through door number two? Both doors might be a

little bit rusty, a little bit bumpy Rob, I’m not gonna be dishonest

with you, I’m not gonna lie to you about that. You know, life is not

ah, gonna be a roller coaster. There’s gonna be some ups and

some downs that’s for sure. But at the end of the day you could do

one, one thing right here, and you know, you could go out, I guess

with style and you can take us and you can show us where some of

these girls are. (PAUSE 40 SEC) You can take us out if you want

and show us where, Heather is. (KNOCKS ON THE PICTURE

BOARD) Tell us what you did to her. If you like. (PAUSE 25 SEC)

(KNOCKS ON 6th PICTURE) Diane ROCK you can show us what

you did with her. (KNOCKING)

SGT. DON ADAM: Hi Bill. I’m just wondering if I should spend, come in and spend just

a couple of seconds with Willy so that, I don’t think he’s quite got

the whole picture of what’s going on here.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Absolutely, do you want me to leave you with him?

SGT. DON ADAM: No, no I’m just only ah, just want to lay this out for him because ah,

you guys ah, hi Bob, or Robert which to do you prefer to be called?

ROBERT PICKTON: Doesn’t matter.

SGT. DON ADAM: It’s hard for Don ADAM by the way. (SHAKES HANDS) Have a

seat. I’ll call you well I don’t know, I’ve heard some people say you

prefer to be called Robert, I knew you as Willy, I used to be

stationed in Coquitlam back in the early eighties with John

PEARSON and then all those guys back in the days when ah, you

guys were burying equipment and doing that kind of stuff. Bob I’m

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in charge of this investigation alright, I’m a S/Sgt. and ah, Bill’s

gone over some of this stuff but I think that maybe you need to hear

from me sort of the overall picture and I’m not gonna be, spend a lot

of time with you, but I want to just set things out, sort of crystal clear

as to how this comes together. Okay. The first thing you need to

know is this, okay Robert. Right now we can associate you to

twelve of these women. Alright, and that’s two weeks into the

investigation. Okay, twelve of them. Next you need to know is that

relative to Sereena ABOTSWAY and, and ah, I’m not a front line

investigator right, I direct the guys, relative to her we have Linda

DICK, who will state last summer that she met you and Sereena

together and Sereena introduced you alright as Robert and that

Sereena said you were going out to your farm. (PICKTON

(18:30) SHAKES HEAD “NO”) No, no, no. No, just wait and listen. Okay.

Okay, just wait and listen. Never saw her again, that will be

evidence. The next evidence is that I’ve got my people tracking

every movement of Sereena ABOTSWAY. Sereena ABOTSWAY

was no good with money Robert. What happened is that every

three days she would have to go to Welfare to get money, they

would give her I think it’s thirty-five dollars. I could stand to be

corrected on that but she was no good with it. She was always in

getting her asthma medicine alright. She disappeared on the 19th

of July, 2001 alright. So firstly, DICK puts you with her, secondly we

can lock in when she disappeared, alright. Now Bill’s talked to you

about that, but here’s your problem alright. The media released

about that ah, inhaler alright. We have statements from people,

including your brother, alright, where you say yes, it was a shiny

case, I brought it into the house. Willy that’s gonna be the evidence,

alright. A shiny case I brought into the house. You discuss it with a

whole bunch of people and we have that. You can’t move away

from that’s your position. Willy, you need to understand something,

that inhaler was not found by itself in your house, it was found in a

tote bag belonging to Sereena ABOTSWAY. Inside the tote bag are

her shoes, her clothes, a needle and on that needle is her DNA and

your DNA, together. Okay. Additionally, when we went out into the

garbage, we found layers of garbage, we found her second inhaler

that she got on the ah, 19th, in your garbage. No, no, no this is a

fact, in your garbage, under layers of garbage we found two more

of her inhalers. Yeah, we got four of them. Alright. Willy, you need

to understand, you told a lie to try and justify how that inhaler got

into your house, (PICKTON SHAKES HEAD “NO”) oh yeah, Willy.

There’s no point in shaking your head just listen to me, so you know

what the evidence is, cause you need to know where you are. You

need to know where you are because only by knowing where you

are Willy, only by knowing exactly how locked in your are, how the

lies are dragging you down like a stone. If you pick up a great big

boulder Willy and step into a deep lake, what happens to you?

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(PICKTON WIPES HIS EYES) You go to the bottom don’t you. And

the lies that you’ve told, the little cover ups you’ve tried to create,

are stones that are gonna carry you to the bottom Willy. Alright, so

you need to listen to me ‘cause I am not here to lie, and Bill got a bit

of the evidence confused alright and it’s not his intention to lie and

I’m gonna straighten up that confusion out right here and now.

Cause we’re not here to lie to you about evidence, and we’re not

here to exaggerate the evidence Willy. We don’t have to. Do you

understand? So where, where Bill has got, made mistakes or got

confused I’m gonna straighten you out on that. Sereena

ABOTSWAY you will be convicted of that, alright. On the tote bag

Willy is her blood. Alright. And Willy you are locked into all of your

stories about finding that one inhaler, Willy one inhaler. Not a tote

bag with blood, not extra inhalers in your garbage, not any of that

stuff Willy. You are completely finished on that case. Mona

WILSON, that is a murder site inside that motor home. We have got

tons of witness talking about you in that motor home. There are

tons of them. I’ve got forty-five guys out taking statements and have

working night and day. Alright. I’ve got a room full of statements,

videos, Dictaphone taped statements, everybody talking about you.

It is an army of investigators and they are the best in the province

and we’re not making mistakes Willy, it is coming down on you like

an avalanche okay, and you’ve helped to bring it down, by your little

stories alright, and we have that from the people. They’re afraid of

you alright, and they tell you oh, well this, but in truth they’re giving

us stuff. Mona WILSON, that’s a murder scene, alright, no doubt

about it. There’s the drag marks, where you dragged her out of

there. Alright. There’s the fact that you’ve got the dildo with the gun

and your mixed DNA with hers on that dildo. How do you think a

jury is gonna look at a dildo on the end of a gun Willy, that’s got

DNA of you and her connected with a murder scene. What are they

gonna think alright. Probably what happened Willy, I don’t know. It

doesn’t end there, we’ve got the I.D. of Heather BOTTOMLEY,

alright another girl, we got more identification, more property of

another girl there. We got the statements alright, your friend alright

and he is your friend, he likes you, he talks about liking you. But

he’s not willing to sit by Willy when you murder somebody. People

aren’t willing to stand by you when you, when they know you’re a

killer. And you know he talks about the needle with the windshield

washer fluid.

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know nothing about that.

SGT. DON ADAM: You don’t know anything about that absolutely not. (SHAKING

HEAD) Well Willy I got bad news for you because inside your ah,

entertainment unit or whatever it is, a chest of drawers in your

trailer.

Page 162 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: Guess what’s there? A needle with windshield washer fluid. Yes

Willy absolutely.

ROBERT PICKTON: I know nothing about that.

SGT. DON ADAM: Willy tell me your story.

ROBERT PICKTON: I’m honest with you.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well you want to know something, I haven’t even started but you

want to know how bad it is, that your brother Dave alright, is talking

to a Mark and Bruce those two policemen he’s been dealing with

and talking with. He told them today I know it’s over for Willy, I know

there’s bodies, he’s, he’s saying Dinah TAYLOR killed some of

those women. Some of the women, women it wasn’t Willy that did

it, he just got rid of the bodies and he’s gonna come forward with

that evidence. But Willy, that may be true, but your brother’s saying

that alright. Now, I don’t know if your brother knows where the

bodies is, are or whether but he’s already given that up to the them

and he’s just got a work out the final arrangements to give that up.

Willy, maybe you didn’t kill every single one of those, maybe Dinah

TAYLOR is involved in some of it, maybe you were getting

blackmailed we know that Lynn ELLINGSEN was blackmailing you

alright. We know that. Do you understand? If you’ve been used

Willy, if you’ve been drawn into this by people, may be pressured,

then you need to explain that. You need to explain it Willy. Okay,

but it’s coming down, Dinah TAYLOR alright, after she told what,

she, she took off out of here, and went back to the Reserve in

Ontario. We flew some policemen out there and they went to her

house with her mom and dad and her mom and dad and them

talked her into cooperating and she said that she had phoned you

and tried to cook up a story with you about some sort of a duffle

bag, that it came from the, some hotel ah, the Cobalt. She gave that

up.

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s true.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah, well she did phone you, because she told us that.

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s true, it came from the Cobalt.

SGT. DON ADAM: No, no, no. She, she told our, our people that that was a story that

you, you guys agreed to tell.

Page 163 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well I’m telling you that’s what, that’s where we are now Willy. You

need to understand this, Lynn ELLINGSEN, alright, who was

blackmailing you, is negotiating with her lawyer to give you up right

now, so that she doesn’t go down for whatever her involvement

was. Right now. Her lawyer’s have called us and are negotiating.

Willy do you know who Paul BERNARDO is? Paul BERNARDO

killed two young girls back in Ontario okay and he, he killed them

with his wife, her name is Karla HOLMOLKA. Alright and they’re,

they’re famous here in Canada because it’s sort of the first

man/woman team that we’re aware of where they were involved in

serial killings. Now running this file Willy, I can tell you that I’m

sitting here going I don’t know how involved or, or uninvolved

TAYLOR and ELLINGSEN are with you, I know they were bringing

girls out to you. I’ve got tons of evidence of that, I know that

ELLINGSEN has talked about blackmailing you alright. She talks

about coming in while you were skinning a girl, hanging on a hook.

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s not true.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well Willy you know how bad it is.

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s here nor there.

SGT. DON ADAM: Listen to me for a second, you know how bad it is alright. I know

that you were angry against the girls, I know that, that one of these

girls that you blame them for giving you Hep ‘C’ that’s true isn’t it?

(PICKTON SHAKES HEAD “NO”) They did give you well, I got, I

got people lined up to tell me that you’ve said that Willy. If it’s a

situation where you weren’t thinking straight, that your anger at

being stabbed, that you’re upset over being sick because of that,

caused you to make these mistakes. Give people a chance to

understand. Because you know what, you do not want to be hated

and, and despised as you go through the rest of your life. Okay, so

you gotta start thinking longer term you know. We’re not, we’re not

offering you any deals Willy cause we don’t have to. Do you

understand? Like we don’t have to, do you know what’s in it for us,

why we care? Two reasons Willy, number one is that I know these

families alright. I met them, I know them, and I know that, that these

ladies you know, their lives went, went wrong. Okay, and I know

that you have nothing but contempt for them alright, and I know that

in my life, before I got involved in this file, they’re not the kind of, I

would just ignore them. I wouldn’t think about it. But I’ve met their

families and they didn’t end up wanting their kids to be that way and

your mom and dad didn’t end up wanting you to be a serial killer.

Do you understand Willy? That’s not what we want for our kids.

Page 164 of 252

Your brother doesn’t want you destroyed he wants to try and

understand. Now I’ll tell you what though, is that half of my

investigators think that Dave’s fully involved in this, they think that

the two of you were involved. Alright. There’s other people that

think the Hell’s Angels are involved with you. (PICKTON SHIFTS IN

CHAIR) Okay. Willy you know how big or how small this is, (ADAM

MOVES CLOSER) you know whether it’s just you, you know

whether it’s you and the girls, alright and you know whether it’s you

and Dinah, you know whether it’s you and Lynn, you know what

that is Willy. You know whether it’s you and Dave. But if you’re

lookin’ for why you should deal with this thing, deal with it up front, I

can tell you a number of really good reasons. It that by explaining,

giving people a chance to understand is gonna made a huge

difference in how you’re treated for the rest of your life. It’s gonna

make a huge difference in whether or not you’re seen with utter

contempt or in that prison environment with respect. The truth is

Willy you’re probably gonna be the largest serial killer in the history

of Canada, you’re gonna be a very, very famous guy. Alright, you

will have achieved something. You know you eluded the police for

years and years, let’s face it. It’s pretty amazing. But it is over. And

you know what Willy, you’re a smart, logical person, Billy said it, it’s

true. And the reality is, is that I believe you want to be, make it a

smart, logical choice as we deal with this. And you want to be

explaining about Lynn and Dinah and where all that happened.

Cause if they were pressuring you, if they were doing things,

blackmailing you, holding stuff over, if they’re fully involved, that

gives some explanation to it. That’s gonna be something that allows

Dave, you know, your sister, the rest of the people you know, and

there, and there’s lots of stuff up in the air. Willy, there’s some

people that think you hate your sister. There’s people who talk

about how Dave treats you, that Dave treats you badly, that he yells

at you, and you know, and that you’re hostile towards him. Is that

true? (SHAKES HEAD “NO”) I mean he I know he does yell at

you,cause you can’t, he gets angry with you. You know Willy, I

know that they’ve all done better than you, their lives have been

better than yours. You broke out of the farm once, when was that,

what year was it that you went down south?

ROBERT PICKTON: ‘74.

SGT. DON ADAM: In 1974, did you take a bus?

ROBERT PICKTON: I flew all the way down there.

SGT. DON ADAM: You flew.

ROBERT PICKTON: I flew down there.

Page 165 of 252

SGT. DON ADAM: How did you chose that place, how did you choose that?

ROBERT PICKTON: Ah, (INDECIPHERABLE) pen pals.

SGT. DON ADAM: How did you become pen pals with her?

ROBERT PICKTON: Writing.

SGT. DON ADAM: Pardon?

ROBERT PICKTON: Writing.

SGT. DON ADAM: Okay, and she invited you down?

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. DON ADAM: How old were you then?

ROBERT PICKTON: Twenty-four.

SGT. DON ADAM: Twenty-four years old, your whole life ahead of you right. Willy that

(18:45) was your chance to get away, to step away from the farm, to step

away what it was doing with you and to you. You know, Bill and I

talked to a young guy who’s a killer out of Chilliwack. And he was a

young guy, his parents are dairy farmers, and what he talked about

is the fact the farm was a trap. His parents health wasn’t good, and

everyday from four o’clock til seven o’clock until he dragged himself

home to drop into bed asleep, he worked.And he couldn’t take a

holiday, because the cows needed to be milked and he couldn’t

have a relationship because the cows and the work needed to be

done, and he was completely tied to that life and it was like a noose

around his neck Willy, tightening, choking, choking the life out of

him, choking the youth out of him. And in him, what that created is

anger, anger at the unfairness of it, his sisters went off University,

he stayed. His parents got older, more frail, his, his chance to

escape faded. Do you understand Willy? His options, in our lives

we want options, we want chances to do things, we want, we want

to be able to grow, we want to be able to meet somebody we care

about, not prostitutes, Willy. We’ve got lots of statements from

prostitutes about the fact that you turn them over and you have sex

with and you never even look at them. You won’t ever look at them

cause your not proud of what you’re doing, are you Willy?

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah

SGT. DON ADAM: Pardon.

Page 166 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: Really never had no, no sex with them?

SGT. DON ADAM: Pardon?

ROBERT PICKTON: Never had much sex with them.

SGT. DON ADAM: You never had much sex with them. No then that’s true. But

sometimes you did. (PICKTON SHAKES HEAD “NO”) Yeah, well

I’ve got statements from them.

ROBERT PICKTON: Okay.

SGT. DON ADAM: I’ve read ‘em Willy.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. DON ADAM: You know what I mean.

ROBERT PICKTON: The ones brought over and…those…

SGT. DON ADAM: And you had the girls bring them out right? You’ve had, did Lisa

ever bring out girls for you?

ROBERT PICKTON: Who?

SGT. DON ADAM: Isn’t it Lisa YELLS, YELLS, blond haired girl, she used to be

married to Blacky the biker.

ROBERT PICKTON: YELLS, YELLS, Lee.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah, did she ever bring girls out for you, or is your relationship

with her not that?

ROBERT PICKTON: Lee’s nice.

SGT. DON ADAM: No, but did she ever bring girls out for you?

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Alright, so the ones that brought girls out for you.

ROBERT PICKTON: Lee, Lee, Lee YELLS. YELLS, that’s, that’s her name.

SGT. DON ADAM: Okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: I couldn’t think of her name.

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SGT. DON ADAM: Alright we know that Dinah brought out girls, right? You, you

don’t need to think about it Robert you know, that’s a fact, we know

that, you know that. Alright. We know that ah, ELLINGSEN did,

Lynn correct? Alright. What I don’t know right now is whether they

were full participants in some of these killings okay, whether,

whether they were pushing you. We know that Lynn was

blackmailing you, alright. You’ve told people that and we’ve got

those statements and you know what, she is going to screw you

again, like, everything she’s done to you, she is gonna screw you

again Willy. And that’s one of the things you could stop. You

choose to tell the truth here tonight, and that choice is yours alright.

But you could screw her right back because if you talk before she

does, there’s no need for us to make a deal with her, we could be

down there arresting her later on tonight if you tell the truth about

what was going on, do you understand? Don’t you get tired of being

beat up by people, and abused and used Willy? Aren’t you tired of

it? Isn’t it time you did something just for me, just for yourself? Don’t

let these people beat you up, make you into a monster, use you,

walk away from everything they’ve done, laughing and what, selling

their story to CNN, so they make money on it. You know how it

goes. That’s all in the palm of your hand, alright. Are you gonna be

made a fool of by these people, don’t do it Willy. Don’t do it. You

are finished, but at least deal with things now. Because I’ll tell you

as a cop alright, as the guy running this file I want to get to the truth,

and you know what, if Dinah, like your brother says has killed some

of these girls, maybe that’s not true, maybe that’s just you know,

your, you know, you just want to try and explain why we’re gonna

find bodies okay. Do you understand? But if she has, or if Lynn

knew and was still bringing the girls out, which is what I think, and

Dinah was, then don’t let them make money and make themselves

famous and make you look worse, and drive you into the dirt Willy.

Cause you have the power right here and right now to put a stop to

this, and you know all you gotta do is tell the truth, tell the truth. We

sort it out, cause suddenly when you tell the truth they had no more

power to hurt you. They have no more power to make money off

you, they have no more power to make deals okay. Cause I’m

telling you that’s how it works. Her lawyer’s in negotiating, right

now, Lynn’s and you know she can hurt you, you know that, and

she has hurt you. She’s blackmailed you, she’s betrayed you and

she’s gonna do it again. Willy don’t lay down and let them stomp all

over you do you understand, is that reasonable, does that make

sense to you? That’s what I’m saying, you know, you’re sitting there

wondering should I, should I give them this information, should I

deal with this, what’s in it for me? There’s lots in it for you. There’s

lots in it for you, because you make a decision am I gonna be used

by these people over and over and over, people you helped Willy.

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You could have killed those two girls, you didn’t, did you. Do you

see what I mean, you could have though, but you didn’t because

something in you care about those girls. And now they’ve done this

to you, it’s not right Willy, it’s not right, it’s not right that she

blackmailed you, it’s not right what they’re doing, don’t let them use

you. I’m holding out my hand to you, I’m offering you a chance to

have some dignity, to walk, to walk through this thing. To stop being

used by people, to not let them win and you lose. Are you know that

somebody who blackmailed you, made fun of you, ridicules you

when she’s talking to other people, in other words talks down about

you. Are you gonna let her win again? All for some lost cause Willy.

Cause it is a lost cause. The evidence against you is overwhelming,

I mean I’ve touched on a small fraction of it, it literally is pouring in

so fast that I have to bring in more and more people just to organize

it. And I sit there and I write, I’ve written about five notebooks over

the last couple of weeks. Well that’s an exaggeration about three,

three full big notebooks of evidence as it just comes in, I can’t even

keep it straight myself Willy. It’s so powerful, it’s like a giant

avalanche coming down the mountain, okay. And it is over, it’s over

whether you choose to talk about it or not, it’s over. But if you

choose not to talk about it, a) the families of these people get hurt

more, cause it’s gonna take time for us to dig up the girls and

whatever’s left alright, and I don’t want that. I want closure for those

families, it’s breaking their hearts. You get used, we will end up

making deals with, with Dinah, she’s already you know, she’s not at

the lawyer stage yet, but she’s negotiating, she, she had a good

meeting with our two members that flew out there. Her family want’s

her to cooperate, you know, that’s just a matter of time. Now that

you’re, now that you’re in custody she know, she knows that you’re

dangerous to her, cause you know what’s she done and you know

what Lynn’s done. Okay, so it’s gonna become a race to see who,

who deals with things first. If you let them win you’ve just let them

win again Willy. You’ve just let them win again and that’s a mistake,

that’s a mistake you know. Dave knows it’s over …

ROBERT PICKTON: Well the best thing I gotta talk to Dinah anyways before I do

anything anyways…

SGT. DON ADAM: I’m sorry you gotta what?

ROBERT PICKTON: I got to talk Dinah anyways before anything.

SGT. DON ADAM: To say what? Like Dinah can I, is it alright if I go and show them the

bodies?

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

Page 169 of 252

SGT. DON ADAM: Willy look at me for a sec, okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: I gotta talk to her anyways first.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well you’re not gonna be able to talk to her. Alright. Our people are

gonna be negotiating with her over the next little while and they’ll

come to some agreement. Dave is saying alright, Dave told Mark

and Bruce this morning, that it’s all gonna be over, that there are

bodies, and that you didn’t kill them all. Alright but, but look at me

Willy, alright. He’s already told them…

ROBERT PICKTON: There are bodies.

SGT. DON ADAM: That there’s murd, been murders and he said you told him okay. I

think he wants to believe that in some ways Dinah has killed some

of these girls and that, and that for some of them, you’ve just

helped get rid of the bodies. Okay, that, that is probably partially

true, okay Robert, partially true. Well maybe it’s, maybe it’s not,

maybe it was just you couldn’t tell your own brother you’d done this.

Okay. You know that, you know which is the truth, whether she did

or whether it is all you, and Robert look at me for a sec, I’m only

asking for the truth. Do you understand that? That’s what you need

to focus on right now. Cause if you tell a bunch of lies and stories,

then Lynn wins, do you know what I mean? I know that you still, you

clearly have feelings for Dinah don’t you? Okay. Do you understand

if Dinah has killed these girls then she has to deal with that, do you

understand that? Does that make sense to you? If she hasn’t you

know, then we need to know that, so we’re not looking at her as a

killer.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, but I gotta talk to her anyways first, before I say anything.

SGT. DON ADAM: No but, but okay, let’s examine that for a second Willy. Tell me why

we should let you do that.

ROBERT PICKTON: Well I’d like to talk to her.

SGT. DON ADAM: No, no, no I know, but, but let me ask you this, you know, I mean if

you were a cop, why would you, why would you allow that to

happen? If you were in my shoes.

ROBERT PICKTON: Well, I just want to talk to her.

SGT. DON ADAM: I know but I mean, why should I as a policeman, allow two suspects

to talk to each other.

ROBERT PICKTON: (PAUSE) Well, I’m not a suspect anymore am I?

Page 170 of 252

SGT. DON ADAM: No, well yeah, you’re charged, you’re…

ROBERT PICKTON: There you are. So I’m not a suspect anymore.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well you’re still suspect in all the other ones. Right.

ROBERT PICKTON: It’s gonna come out anyways right?

SGT. Bill FORDY: Pardon?

ROBERT PICKTON: It’s gonna come out anyways.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah, it may take…

ROBERT PICKTON: About myself. It doesn’t matter.

SGT. DON ADAM: What’s the point?

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s what I’m saying.

SGT. DON ADAM: Okay. Let me ask you this Willy then,…

ROBERT PICKTON: But I gotta talk to her first.

SGT. DON ADAM: No, well then let’s just deal with one step at a time. I know you care

about Dinah, what about Lynn, how do you feel about her?

ROBERT PICKTON: Okay. I think she’s a nice person.

SGT. DON ADAM: Um, hum. Did you think that when she was blackmailing you? Willy

you didn’t, did you? No one likes to be blackmailed, come on, let’s

be honest with each other, right.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. DON ADAM: Okay. I mean you’re angry…

ROBERT PICKTON: She, she did blackmail me.

SGT. DON ADAM: I know she did.

ROBERT PICKTON: Time and time over. Time and time over.

SGT. DON ADAM: She says it’s because she walked in when you were skinning a girl.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, right.

Page 171 of 252

SGT. DON ADAM: Well Willy, we’ve, we’ve had you I’m telling you right now, we’ve

got statements from other people saying that you’ve done that.

Willy, we’ve got people saying that you used to have sex with them

when they were dead, that you were…

ROBERT PICKTON: Oh yeah, right.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well I’m telling you…

ROBERT PICKTON: Okay.

SGT. DON ADAM: That you know what, how bad things are or were, what the situation

is right. You know whether you are the worst monster to ever come

down the pike here in Canada…

ROBERT PICKTON: (LAUGHING)

SGT. DON ADAM: …or not. You know whether you’ve killed, killed fifty women or, or

more because one thing Bill didn’t tell you okay, that those eight

unidentified women’s DNA, Willy they’re all in the blood. Not, not,

not this, look at my hand, (ADAM PUTS HAND ON WALL) it’s not

(19:00) this, it’s blood. Blood’s all over your, your place. And do you want to

know what, in that trailer, there’s more blood, there’s not just, not

just ah, Mona WILSON, there’s, there’s other blood in there that’s

gonna probably be other kill sites. Do you know what’s gonna

happen they, they’re moving the lab right on site, we’re actually

putting a lab up there right now there are nine trailers on your

property. Alright. They got, they’ve devised a method where they’re

gonna be able to separate ah, rapidly the pig blood from human

blood. They’re gonna be moving into the slaughterhouse, Willy,

there’s I absolutely believe we’re gonna find the human blood in

there. What about that? Where do we go then? When everybody’s

won except you, where do we go? When the deals have been

made with the woman who was blackmailing you, when she’s

escaped her responsibility, see you only get one chance. You only

get one chance and if you want to let her win, get used again, I saw

how you felt about being blackmailed. No one likes to be

blackmailed, but for one moment Willy, in your life, you have a

chance to pay back, you have a chance to pay back. And if you

choose not to, then that whore’s just used you again. Because the

reality is some of these guys who are talking about things that

you’ve done and there’s lots of them. Alright. You know, Bill showed

you know, one and you listened to one but the reality is, is that you

may have things that you can say about them, to even things up.

But the only way you can do that is by telling the truth and by

dealing with it. So you wonder what’s in it for you Willy, it’s a

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chance to not get kicked in the chops again by these people.

Alright. Cause the other side of it, I mean we all try and protect

ourselves you know, we all try and protect ourselves. You know

Willy if a doctor said to me, Don you got cancer in your arm alright.

If he said to me well I’m gonna chop your arm off do you think I

would want my arm chopped off Willy? Do you think I would? But if I

knew that the, if I didn’t deal with my arm, if I, that it was gonna turn

into gangrene and I would die, then I’d make a decision don’t I,

logically I make a decision that you know, I’m finished if I don’t do

this. Well Willy you’re finished okay, you are finished and the

question you need to ask yourself is am I gonna be used by

everybody every time I turn around right into the end. Cause your

bargaining power is disappearing. Cause in the end if you choose

not to tell alright, the investigation simply keeps rolling, the search

continues, unfortunately the families, they have to live with

uncertainty for another year as we dig and find the DNA and the

teeth and the hair and the everything (PICKTON LAUGHS). What

you laugh, I know cause I know you don’t really care.

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t think you’ll find anything.

SGT. DON ADAM: Pardon.

ROBERT PICKTON: You won’t find anything. You won’t find anything cause there’s

nothing there.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well Willy, I don’t believe you. Look me in the eyes. We’ll find it.

(PICKTON SHAKES HEAD “NO”) Willy we’ll find it. Like are you so

foolish that you can’t see what we’re gonna do. You can’t see the

millions that we’re gonna spend, we’re gonna fine tooth comb that.

You think we’re not gonna find things, we’ve got your trailer, your

mobile home, we’ve got all the evidence that you lived in there,

alright. We know that you lived in the basement before that, we

don’t know when your killing started Willy, we don’t know when the

killing started alright. There’s things we don’t know, I’m, I’m not

gonna kid you about that. We don’t know whether you started killing

back in, in the late eighties…

ROBERT PICKTON: Oh yeah right. (PICKTON RUBS HIS EYES)

SGT. DON ADAM: But Willy we don’t. We don’t know whether you started killing

sometime in the early nineties alright. I’m thinking at a minimum by

‘97 you were full blown into it. Okay. And like I say, we can

associate twelve to you already and we have just started. Just

started. Alright. Cause we took down the wallpaper alright, that had

that had the blood on it and now in behind is your old wood

paneling but we’re gonna go over ever square inch of that alright,

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and that blood gets in there, it dries and it would last there for five

hundred years, in that state and Willy, we’ll just pull it out. You

changed the carpet, do you remember?

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yes.

ROBERT PICKTON: Cause there’s no carpet in there. (FORDY LEAVES)

SGT. DON ADAM: ———- —- ah, ELLINGSEN’s ah, during ELLINGSEN ah, or sorry

—————- (PHONETIC) when she stabbed you. —– – –

—————- remember.

ROBERT PICKTON: Oh is that right?

SGT. DON ADAM: Alright, when she stabbed you we took all the pictures…

ROBERT PICKTON: Oh yah, yah, yeah.

SGT. DON ADAM: There was carpet on the floor.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. DON ADAM: Do you remember, we’ve got the person who changed that carpet.

We’re gonna go in, we’re gonna take up the floor and the blood and

stuff alright, from all of the girls, is gonna be there Willy. And there’s

nothing you can do to change that alright. All you can do is end up

losing Willy, because the only power you have is right now. Right

now, people care about your story. But once the deals have been

made with Lynn, and the deals have been made with Dinah, and

the deals have been made with the other people alright, to get you

know, deal with you, and it won’t matter. You’ll have no bargaining

power anymore.

ROBERT PICKTON: Now I gotta talk to Dinah.

SGT. DON ADAM: well you’re not gonna talk to Dinah. Willy look at me, you’re not

gonna talk to Dinah, we’re gonna talk to Dinah and either you’re

gonna deal with this or we’re gonna make a deal with her.

Alright. She’s already come part way, she’s already talked about

coaching you on the Cobalt and the ah, black bag that’s got all the

women’s clothing in it. Alright, she’s already told us about that

discussion, of coaching you. You know what I mean by coaching.

ROBERT PICKTON: (INDECIPHERABLE) I talked to her already.

V(6)

V(6)

V(6)

Page 174 of 252

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah, well we talked to her after you talked to her.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. DON ADAM: Okay. Well she, I’ll tell you what, she hasn’t phoned you back.

ROBERT PICKTON: She can’t get a hold me, unless I phone her.

SGT. DON ADAM: Alright. I mean obviously Dinah’s focused on her own, what’s good

for her, right. But I think there’s a difference I, I think that Lynn

wants to hurt you, I don’t think she likes you, alright. And you were

money to her when she was blackmailing you and you gave it to her

alright. And we both discussed that that you know, how you felt

about that, you were angry, you wanted her killed.

ROBERT PICKTON: Who?

SGT. DON ADAM: Lynn.

ROBERT PICKTON: No way.

SGT. DON ADAM: Really Willy, you’re sure about that?

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: (ADAM LEANS FORWARD) And if somebody came forward, a

couple of people and said that, that you want….

ROBERT PICKTON: Why, why would I, why would I phone the paramedics on her, when

she almost dropped dead?

SGT. DON ADAM: Was she blackmailing you by that time?

ROBERT PICKTON: Well I mean, I wasn’t worried about blackmail, but I was the

problem was I was more worried about her health.

SGT. DON ADAM: Right on, but and that, you tell me something, you, you try and save

her life.

ROBERT PICKTON: I did, I saved it twice.

SGT. DON ADAM: Okay, and then she ends up blackmailing you. What does that tell

you about her? What does that tell you about her Willy? Would you

blackmail somebody who saved your life? Let me ask you a

question, would you? You wouldn’t would you. Do you agree, you

wouldn’t do it. (ADAM LEANS BACK) I know that much about you,

I was a young kid in Coquitlam and I knew about you. Willy would

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you blackmail somebody who saved your life, you wouldn’t would

you? You see Willy that’s what’s puzzling, is that, is that you have

done good things for people, do you understand. I’ve got those

people not everybody who has something to say about you, says

you’re a bad guy. You’ve done a lot of good things. Do you

understand? But Willy something’s gone haywire do you

understand, (PICKTON PUTS HEAD IN HAND) something’s gone

haywire. Like I mean, are, you know it’s not normal to kill women, I

mean you know that right. Do we agree on that, that that’s not a

good thing to do, that’s not a normal thing to do. Something’s

happened whether you, whether you came to hate them Willy,

whether you came to blame them for, for having Hepatitis but

somewhere your thinking went off. Do you understand? But what is

at issue here, what this conversation is about, is that, is there a

good Willy PICKTON, is there a good human being in there

somewhere. And I can tell you, having worked in Po Co back in the

late seventies, is that I did, I can remember you and your brother,

and I can remember hearing good things about you. You know, you

yes some, I mean everyone said you were into, to stealing cars

and, and what have you so what, right, that’s life. (ADAM LEANS

FURTHER BACK) Do you understand Willy, do you know

something, if you don’t take the chance and the opportunity to try

and explain then every good thing you’ve done in your life, all the

things that your mother would have been proud of, and your dad

would have been proud of, are gone, are lost. And if people can

paint you Willy, as just a one, simple, evil, evil, hideous creature,

who not only probably killed all of these women, but maybe would

have liked to have killed you know, grabbed women off the street.

Maybe would have you know, sexually assaulted ah, the kids that

came around the park, you know, the farm. You know, we know

that you did nice things for some of the kids right. You took, you

gave them riding lessons, you you know, you were good to some

people weren’t you? Do you want everybody saying that oh, well so

and so used to go over to Willy PICKTON’s, well he probably had

sex with her when she was a little girl. He probably did this, he was

probably screwing little boys. You know, gee he you know, the next

story will be that you were near schools, stalking kids. Like that’s

how people are Willy. Take ownership of the mistakes you’ve

made, but don’t take ownership of everyone else’s horrible

thoughts. Willy, people are gonna be looking for answers and if you

don’t give them the answers they’re gonna make up a thousand

stories. I’m telling you, mark my words. (ADAM LEANS

FORWARD) You know, I know that you’ve had some bad

experiences when you were, when you were young. I know Dana

talked about when you were really young about your pet calf, you

know, and the shock and the horror when, when you know, you

went into the barn and there was your pet stung up with it’s throat

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cut. Do you remember that, telling her that story.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: Okay, those, those hurt us when we’re kids alright. That hurts us,

that ah, hurts us as to why would our dad do that to us. He knew

what that calf meant to you. Would I be right in thinking that your

dad, sometimes farmers can be very sort of cold about livestock

and stuff. If you had a son, would you just go and kill his favourite

calf? Would you Willy? (PAUSE – 10 SECONDS) I’m just asking a

question Willy, would you do that?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know what to say.

SGT. DON ADAM: Do you think you would? Think back to how that made you feel,

would you want to make your son feel that way. Picture yourself

back there, standing in that barn, looking at your calf, hanging

there, dead and imagine, think back to how that felt inside here.

What that little boy ROBERT PICKTON felt, you were what, five

years old? Can you still, you still remember it? Standing there, I

hope my calf hasn’t gone back to the barn mom. You know, tell

me he hasn’t gone to the barn. And as you walk down there, I

can remember what it’s like to be that age. Your heart pounding in

your chest, scared to go look, scared of what you might see. Do

you remember that feeling Willy? And you opened the door, I’ll

bet you can put yourself right back there. And there, there he is,

did that calf have a name? You’re got an excellent memory, I know

that, do you remember what the name of that calf was? (PICKTON

SHAKES HEAD “NO”) No. Or you don’t want to tell me. (PICKTON

SHAKES HEAD “NO”) Willy our lives are made up of things that

change and alter us. Okay, we think we’re heading in one direction

and other things happen okay. When you were young you know, we

start to get interested in sex okay. You know, you never got

involved with girls, whether you were shy, whether the fact that the

farm you know ah, you know working farm kids you know,

sometimes they go to school and ah, you know, we still smell of the

farm. I grew up in the prairies I know about farms okay. And people

laugh at us, did they laugh at you Willy? Did you feel separate from

them? Yeah, …

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know, not really.

SGT. DON ADAM: Different.

ROBERT PICKTON: Uh, uh.

SGT. DON ADAM: No.

Page 177 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: Just work.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah, work. You worked on the farm, but did you hang out with

other kids?

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. DON ADAM: No. And you know what, we both know that we all need to belong,

Willy, that’s why you paid these girls to come out and spend time

with you, even if you weren’t gonna have sex with them, we need to

belong, don’t we? We’re not islands Willy. Willy, I don’t know you, I

don’t know what, what’s inside your head okay, but I know that you

need people, I know you need people, we all do. And I don’t believe

that right into the core of your being you are as much of a monster

as people are gonna portray you to be. Because if you were, you

would have killed or hurt some of these other good people who are

out there. You live in Port Coquitlam, there’s schools near by

alright. I just finished talking to a guy who was dragging women into

a van and raping them alright and he was caught at a Coquitlam

schoolyard, planning the next attack on a little girl. Willy are you the

same kind of guy as that? Have you ever hurt anybody like that?

Okay, those are the things that you can talk about, Willy I talked to

a guy years ago who killed his two little babies, killed his wife and lit

a fire to burn his five year old son to death because he wanted to

have sex with another woman. Cause he was bored. Willy are you

like that? Would you kill your family, do you see what I mean? So

Willy, the mistakes that you made alright, they’re, they’re driven

by certain things. They’re driven I think by anger, and stuff that’s

happened with you. But you’re not at a school yard Willy are you,

you’re not trying to grab little girls off the street. There’s

absolutely no indication you’ve ever done anything like that and if

you tell me that you haven’t I will believe you. Can you look me in

the eye and tell me that Don, I have never done anything like

that?

ROBERT PICKTON: I haven’t done anything like that.

SGT. DON ADAM: Can I believe you when you say that? Is that true Willy that you’ve

never done anything like that, have you ever hurt any kids

ever? You promise me. (PICKTON NODS YES). Okay. There’s

reasons then that this happened, do you understand, do you see

what I mean? Because if you were just a monster, I’m not a serial

killer expert, I’m not even sure how I got involved in this file, alright.

I’m ah, fairly experienced major crime investigator but I don’t claim

to understand the inner workings of what demons drive us Willy, to

make mistakes, the kind that you’ve made. Do you, do you

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understand that? I’m not trying to pass myself off as an expert

but I know that there are serial killers who would have been

grabbing and killing little girls and little boys at the opportunity.

You can’t tell me you, you haven’t driven past kids that you could

have grabbed over the last ten years, and, and never thought of

it, or let me, can I ask you another question Willy please, and be

honest with me. Can you look me in the eye and I’m asking you…

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah. (TAKES A DRINK)

SGT. DON ADAM: Have you ever even fantasized about grabbing any kids or anything

like that. Like were the kids in Port Coquitlam or anything in danger

from you? (PICKTON SHAKES HEAD “NO”) Is that true.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. DON ADAM: Okay, thank you then. (SHAKE HANDS) Alright I, I raised my family

in Port Coquitlam and I, I want to believe that all right, is that fair.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um,hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: Do you understand why, we as parents, as a community, want to

try and understand this thing Willy? Cause you, you’ve done

good and yet you’ve done horrible, horrible things, do you

understand? And we just want to understand. Nobody wants to

make you some monster that you’re not but people want to

understand. They want to understand how can Willy PICKTON

be good to kids, help them with horses, help them do stuff, be

nice to your nieces and be well thought of and yet there’s this

dark side here. You could help people understand that. Do you

understand, do you see that? And in helping us to understand

Willy, you want to know what’s, what’s in it for you to tell the truth,

really, besides making sure that, that Lynn doesn’t get to laugh at

you again. When we understand why things happen do you, do

you remember ah, I don’t know it you followed it but there was a

young girl grabbed in Maple Ridge, and murdered about a year

ago, alright. I think her name either her’s or his was TROTT, he

was the, he was the guy that ah, had Fetal Alcohol Syndrome in

other words he was somewhat, brain damaged. That was a

horrible crime a little girl was taken away and she was sexually

assaulted and murdered. But when people were able to

understand what was happening with that person, why they made

that mistake, then they focused instead of anger against him, at

how society, how we had failed that person, alright. Cause that’s

what people are like Willy if you give them a chance to

understand, all right, they’re willing to hold out their hand to you.

Willy that’s important to you, alright. Because you are gonna

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continue on in life, Billy said to you that you’re a survivor and you

are strong okay, do you understand that Willy? (ADAM LEANS

BACK) When those two boars started fighting, do you remember

that ?

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: And you jumped in the middle, why did you jump in the middle of

them?

ROBERT PICKTON: To break them up.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah, I’ve never seen boars ah, fighting, is it a frightening thing?

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, they kill each other.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah, I’ve seen dogs fighting, have you ever seen two dogs, good

size dogs fighting?

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. DON ADAM: It’s not something you want to get in the middle of is it?

ROBERT PICKTON: Sometimes you have to do what you have to do.

SGT. DON ADAM: Exactly. But you know what I know Willy, is that knowing the right

thing to do, in this case trying to stop the boars from killing each

other, and having the courage to do it, is what being a man is all

about. You were taught that weren’t you and it’s part of you. You

saw what you had to do and you did it and you got hurt because

of doing the right thing. Agreed alright. I know that, alright, I wasn’t

always somebody who just pushed paper and watched other

people do real police work alright. There was time when I was on

the street and I would get involved in things and I would do the right

thing, even though it was dangerous, alright. That’s a little hard for

the younger people to believe that I actually did that, but that is true.

It’s the same thing Willy alright. You have that in you, the ability to

do the right thing but what’s happening here is you’re weighing,

alright, your situation and I don’t blame you for that. But I’m here to

tell you that whether or not you say a word, this thing is over for

you. But truly your future, how you’re viewed in prison, how you’re

viewed, how your family are viewed, whether or not Dave is under

suspicion. You know right now, whether Dave took any part in this

stuff, alright. You know right now whether he’s involved. If he’s

involved Willy…

ROBERT PICKTON: No he’s not.

Page 180 of 252

SGT. DON ADAM: Well only by you telling the truth can you clear the air. (PICKTON

TAKES DRINK) Now Willy if you tell the truth, people will believe

you. You know what I did for years, I was a polygraph examiner, do

you know what that is, a lie detector test. Have you ever heard of

that? (PICKTON SHAKES HEAD “NO”) Lie detector tells whether

you’re telling the truth or not. That’s what I did, I became an expert

at telling when people were telling the truth or not, for awhile,

probably forgotten all that now, but I used to be pretty good at it.

Willy, when you tell the truth, when someone looks in your eyes and

tells you the truth, there’s a ring to it, there’s a believability to it,

alright. Now Willy I watched you when you denied being involved in

these murders, and there’s no ring of truth to it. Alright. I, I need

you to know that and I know you’re not telling the truth. (ADAM

LEANS FORWARD) But I can tell you that if you do tell the truth

alright, I’ll know it, if there’s things you just can’t bring yourself to

tell right now, do you understand that that’s okay. Willy,

sometimes we get into things bit by bit and we end up doing

things that we never want anyone to see the light of day, we

never you know, be it the allegations that you had sex with some

of these girls when they were dead.

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s not true.

SGT. DON ADAM: But if you don’t tell the truth about it, if you don’t help us to

understand the whole picture, every horrible thing in the world will

be said about you. Do you understand Willy? Everybody who

wants to be mean, everybody who wants to, to, to laugh at you

and ridicule you and make you a horrible, horrible creature is

gonna win if you choose not to tell the truth. You know, the

psychologists, some of them are saying this is all about Willy

PICKTON torturing these women, that it, that you wanted, and

you probably tortured them and enjoyed their screams and their

agony as, as you killed them over who knows how long a period

of time. See Willy some, some serial killers have done that. Willy

if you’ve done it, you’ve done it okay, do you understand, but if it’s

not like that, okay, tell the truth. If it’s something that progressed

it got out of control, if it was you know, you’re driven to it, do you

know who RIDGEWAY is, Gary RIDGEWAY? (PICKTON SHAKES

HEAD) Gary RIDGEWAY is the Green River killer, alright. Green

River murderer is the guy who’s killed ah, all the hookers down in

Seattle. He may be the only person in North America who’s killed

more women than you. Okay, it’s right now, we don’t know who’s

killed more, whether it’s you, or whether it’s him. He killed about

forty-two it looks like.

ROBERT PICKTON: (LAUGHING) (SHAKING HEAD “NO”)

Page 181 of 252

SGT. DON ADAM: Well Willy I don’t know. I don’t have a crystal ball Willy, I don’t

(19:30) know whether you’ve been killing for, for fifteen years, for ten

years. Why are you laughing?

ROBERT PICKTON: Just the way you said it there. Fuck that’s a lot of people.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well it, but Willy you’ve killed a lot of people, like let me ask you a

question? Alright without telling me the number, …

ROBERT PICKTON: What’s that?

SGT. DON ADAM: You know, do you, do you know how many it is? Just, just take

your time and think about it, do you know the number or, or is it

just started to just you don’t know anymore?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know. I don’t know.

SGT. DON ADAM: I’ve run this investigation for a year, when we finally finish, if you

were to tell me the truth, can I close down my investigation or are

there gonna be girls here that I’m gonna have to look for some

other person who’s, who’s taken their lives.

ROBERT PICKTON: What’s that?

SGT. DON ADAM: I’ve run the investigation for a year, right. My question of you is,

when you decide to tell the truth, can I close my investigation or is

there gonna be, is there gonna be like you know, a section of this

that I’m gonna have to look for someone else who’s done it or is

it, is it all you? I know it’s you for that last while, alright, cause I’m

telling you it, the evidence is just pouring in, stacking in. Do I

need to look for somebody else for the older ones. (PICKTON

NODS HEAD “YES”) Yeah, okay. Alright. Willy had anyone ever

helped you do it? Any of these guys that are talking about you, are

they more involved in this than ah, than their telling us?

ROBERT PICKTON: I shouldn’t be talking without a lawyer present

(INDECIPHERABLE).

SGT. DON ADAM: No, and you don’t have to. But I appreciate, I appreciate what

you’ve given me so far and I, I want to thank you for that. Do you

know a guy named VICKERS? He’s a Hell’s Angel. He knows,

he knows you guys. Is he involved in this?

ROBERT PICKTON: (SHRUGS) I don’t know.

SGT. DON ADAM: Or, or you don’t want to say.

Page 182 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know, but there is so many people that are involved in this

it’s way over. Way over.

SGT. DON ADAM: Let me ask you this question Willy. Right now we’re lookin’ at, at

you and probably maybe three of the girls getting you, bringing

the prostitutes out to you. Okay. Are there other people, is this

bigger than what we think?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well we know, we know that Lisa brought girls out to you. Right. We

know Dinah’s brought…

ROBERT PICKTON: Lisa?

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah, ELLINGSON, isn’t it.

ROBERT PICKTON: Lynn.

SGT. DON ADAM: Lynn, I’m sorry, I’m getting tired, I’ve worked a lot of hours.

ROBERT PICKTON: Lisa, Lisa no, not Lisa, Lisa…

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah, Lisa’s the other one. Lisa YELLS. Has she ever brought girls

up to you? Has Nancy ever brought girls up to you? (SHAKES

HEAD “NO”) Is that true?

ROBERT PICKTON: Nancy.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah. Nancy PLASMAN.

ROBERT PICKTON: Nice person.

SGT. DON ADAM: Okay, but do you understand Willy that the only way you can help

your friends, take them out of suspicion is by, by telling the truth.

Otherwise, everyone who’s close to you is under this incredible

cloud. (PAUSE 24 SEC) Willy, let me ask you a question, I

believe that you’re almost like two people. That there’s, there’s

the Willy PICKTON who has friends, who’s kind to those friends,

and who truly cares about them and doesn’t want to see them

hurt by this. Is there, is there truth to that, my belief in that?

Truly, please look at me and just you know, if I’m wrong just tell

me. (PICKTON NODS) And there’s the other you alright, that

somehow is keyed by rage that, that Willy either one of two things

happens, either you just sort of snap and suddenly these things

have happened or else you fantasize and, and you’re driven to it.

Page 183 of 252

Almost the same way those girls were driven to drug that you were

driven to do these, that probably as little as I understand about that

whole psychology Willy, I guess the way it would be like a drug.

That my understanding is that you know, you would end up killing

one of the girls and then that would be okay for awhile and then you

would start to think about it, you’d start to plan your next one, and

I’ve had people tell me that you know, they feel high, they, there’s

a certain excitement that it gives to their lives, it gives some

meaning to their lives and then they move closer and closer and

they fantasize about how it will happen, how’s it gonna go and

they fantasize about what the girl will do and then fantasize about

what they’ll do. And then when it happens Willy, it’s never as

good as the fantasy, it always falls short and they’re always

disappointed afterwards. And maybe Willy, I don’t know but

maybe even feel bad. I don’t know if that’s true and, and I don’t

know maybe even say to themselves I’m not gonna do this

anymore. Maybe even try and not do it, Willy. And if that were

true those are important things for people to know. Important for

you to put a human face on what happened but all of a sudden it

starts building again. And it’s like I don’t know anything about

drugs, I’ve never really been in drugs but I’ve had friends who are

alcoholics Willy. And I’ve seen that battle, and I’ve seen them

promise no, I’m not gonna touch the bottle right. Have you ever

seen an alcoholic? Well these girls, you’ve seen them right, and

they go no, I’m gonna quit drugs. No, I’m not gonna drink. And

then what happens, it’s like they’re drawn to it. And it’s like a

magnet, it’s pulling them, pulling them, pulling them Willy, and I

think that, that that something in you, that demon we’ll call it,

pulled and pulled, would get more and more and more and it start to

occupy your thoughts and then it would start to happen.

And I think that, I think and maybe I’m wrong but I think there’s

maybe been times when you had these girls at your place, and

you’ve thought no I’m not gonna hurt this one, I’m gonna let her

go. And Willy I thank you for that. Alright, cause we have had

girls who, who said I’ve been with Willy out there, and he didn’t

hurt me, but those same girls also go but yeah, so and so went

out there and didn’t come back. Willy we have so many people

coming forward now. So many people. I really would like you to

explain, I think it’s important, I think it’s important that you not be

used by people anymore. Don’t let Lynn beat you again. Don’t let

her blackmail you again. You told me you saved her life twice

and she repaid you by betraying you, by using you, by taking your

money, by laughing in your face. Don’t let her win again. (ADAM

LEANS FORWARD) Do you understand Willy? Give people a

chance to understand that there is some good in you, give them, let

the people who are close to you understand. Did you let some,

some women go Willy? Did you?

Page 184 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: What do you mean go?

SGT. DON ADAM: Leave without hurting them?

ROBERT PICKTON: Oh yeah, I never hurt ‘em, I never hurt ‘em. (PICKTON SIGHS)

I never hurt ‘em.

SGT. DON ADAM: Can you answer one question and be truthful with me?

ROBERT PICKTON: What’s that? I don’t know if I can answer it or not.

SGT. DON ADAM: Okay. Would you do this for me, if you can’t answer, just say

Don I’m sorry I can’t answer that. That what you’ve the story so

far that I’ve heard is that you killed these girls quite quickly. Willy

did you keep them alive and torture them? (PAUSE – 12

SECONDS) Some of them or no.

ROBERT PICKTON: Well I shouldn’t answer that question because I’m not even in court

yet.

SGT. DON ADAM: This isn’t about court right now.

ROBERT PICKTON: I know.

SGT. DON ADAM: It’s you know, obviously everything we say to each other has got

to go to court but we’re past the point of whether or not you did this.

(ADAM TOUCHES PICKTON’S LEFT ARM) But Willy, look at me

(PICKTON LOOKS AT ADAM) please for a sec, the families need

to kinda know and I’d like to know alright. (ADAM REMOVES

HAND FROM PICKTON) Cause if you killed them quickly alright,

then no matter what happened to them, it doesn’t matter does it.

Once you’re gone, it doesn’t matter or if they were so drugged

maybe that they didn’t you know, that they didn’t feel the pain.

That’s important Willy cause it speaks of you, it speaks to your

ability to hold your head up. Do you know what I mean, like you

made your mistakes that you made do you understand. But now.

ROBERT PICKTON: I made my own grave.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah. Yeah, but did you…

ROBERT PICKTON: Now I’m gonna sleep in it.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah, you did.

ROBERT PICKTON: For the rest of my life.

Page 185 of 252

SGT. DON ADAM: I know. But I’d like to be able to look at the, at the brothers and

sisters and mothers and fathers of these women and if it’s the

truth let them know that it’s not a situation where you kept them

chained up and, and tortured them and, and, and reveled in their

scream that, that you did find a way of either choking them quickly

and, and, and painlessly and that they and that they, they went fast.

Cause that’s important to them. Cause it speaks to you, alright.

(PICKTON TAKES A DRINK) Did they go quickly Willy? I know you

gave them drugs, I know you bought lots of drugs for people before

they went out there, did you allow them to shoot up and …

ROBERT PICKTON: I give ‘em money for drugs or whatever but the problem is I mean,

whatever they do with the money it was up to them.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah. But is this gonna ultimately when, when everything is out in

the open are we gonna be looking at stories of days of torture and,

and, and cutting their fingers off, and, and cutting their vagina’s out

their bodies while they’re still alive and, is it gonna be that sort of a

thing Willy? (SHAKES HEAD “NO”) Is it just gonna be some

horrible, horrible thing that we can never understand ‘til, ‘til we die?

Or is it gonna be just a sort of a simple thing that you know, that

you would get them down, you would handcuff them you know, just

sort of quietly choke them unconscious and, and that would be the

end. Something we can understand Willy. That’s important, that’s

gonna be important for Dave to know, it’s gonna be important for

Nancy to know, it’s gonna be important for your sister to know. I

don’t know if you believe in God, or if you believe that your mother’s

up there watching you or your father. Those things are important.

It’s important for these people to know. Do you understand Willy?

(ADAM’S PAGER GOES OFF) only you can tell me how much

these people suffered, whether it was fairly quick. Did any of them

stay alive for days? Hours?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know. I mean we, we going over our heads here.

SGT. DON ADAM: Pardon?

ROBERT PICKTON: Going over our heads here.

SGT. DON ADAM: Why do you say that Willy?

ROBERT PICKTON: Cause I’m not supposed to talk about it.

SGT. DON ADAM: Do you know what I’ve learned though? Do you want to know

something? A member asked me awhile ago, how many, how

many people I had talked to that, that had taken a human’s life? I

Page 186 of 252

don’t remember anymore. Okay. In all those people that I’ve

talked to Willy, there’s only been a few that really are cruel, right

to the core. Cruel, hideous people. Okay. My sense of you is

that that is not you and you’ve, you’ve basically told me that you

do have feelings for people, alright. So then I know yes, that you

care about yourself you know, we all do, do you understand, like

understand that Willy? Does that make sense to you? But Willy

you need to understand that it’s over, and I think you do, alright.

But you have to live, you’ve not gonna, you’re not just gonna

expire, you’ve not gonna lay down and, and in your cell and just

die, right? So you are gonna continue and the life that you lead

and your relationship with people, is gonna be surrounded by

what you do here and now. Alright. Do you need to use the

washroom or anything? (PICKTON SHAKES HEAD) Man you are

quite the guy. Can I get you anything to eat or drink?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t want to eat now.

SGT. DON ADAM: Can’t eat?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t deserve to eat.

SGT. DON ADAM: When I talk to these families how bad is this gonna be Willy? Give

me that, how bad is it gonna be?

ROBERT PICKTON: How bad is what gonna be?

SGT. DON ADAM: How bad is their deaths, are they quick, are they, are they tortured

or slow, are you a sadist, do you know what that means?

(PICKTON SHAKES HEAD “NO”) Can we, can, can we be open

with each other for just a minute? Willy, what are you good at?

ROBERT PICKTON: Whatever.

SGT. DON ADAM: What are you the best at, what do you do, we all like to be good at

something or, or there’s things we pride ourselves in, and I’ve

read the files on you, I’ve read what my investigators say, I’ve

read what people say alright. I’ve, I’ve, I’ve heard about your

statement that you gave once to ah, Cst. CATER and I have

some thoughts but I just, I want, I want to ask you that question,

what are you good at, what do you take pride in? Tell me that.

ROBERT PICKTON: Anything.

SGT. DON ADAM: Like what, give me a for instance.

ROBERT PICKTON: Whatever I do.

Page 187 of 252

SGT. DON ADAM: Give me a for instance.

ROBERT PICKTON: Building.

SGT. DON ADAM: Okay, carry that on.

ROBERT PICKTON: Doing this, doing that.

SGT. DON ADAM: Um, hum. Willy, it struck me, correct me if I’m wrong, I think it was

in the statement to John CATER a long time ago, that he asked

you…

ROBERT PICKTON: Who’s he?

SGT. DON ADAM: He’s a young policeman that I work with now. Ah, he took a

statement from you in regards to ah, something, but I think he

asked you what the best day of your life was, remember that? Ever

been asked that question? If I asked you that question what’s the

best day of your life, what can you remember, what would you say it

was?

ROBERT PICKTON: Don’t know.

SGT. DON ADAM: Do you remember answering him that it was a day that you, you ah,

slaughtered forty, fifty pigs. That you started at seven in the

morning and you slaughtered right through ‘til one, two in the

morning, do you remember that day?

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, that was, that was a good day at work, but that’s not the best

day.

SGT. DON ADAM: Oh, okay. So that was, you answered it that way. It was the best

day at work.

ROBERT PICKTON: I mean, it was, a lot of people were there.

SGT. DON ADAM: Okay Willy, what everyone says alright, one of the things they say

about you, is that you know the pig business. Is that true?

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: That you are, you are good at slaughtering, you take pride in your

work, you do it well…

ROBERT PICKTON: And do it clean.

Page 188 of 252

SGT. DON ADAM: And you enjoy it.

ROBERT PICKTON: I do it clean.

SGT. DON ADAM: But look at me for a second Willy, you enjoy it.

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know if I enjoy it or not I just did it for a job.

SGT. DON ADAM: You know Willy, I think there’s a part of you that likes killing.

ROBERT PICKTON: Hum?

SGT. DON ADAM: A part of you likes killing, well you wouldn’t have done what you

did if you didn’t like it. And I think that somehow you’ve crossed

the line between killing pigs and killing women. That’s a fact. I

mean what we’re talking about here is just how that line got

crossed Willy (PAUSE – 10 SECONDS) See Willy I’m not a

psychologist, I’m not even a particularly bright guy, but somehow

killing and sex and loneliness and anger against these women and,

and I think that, that they gave you Hep ‘C’ and one stabbed you,

do you see, somehow all of that has got twisted up into this just big

giant ball, and that has become a part of you. Okay. And I don’t

know, I am not a shrink. I don’t know, but I’m just wondering if

there’s anyway that working together alright, we could unravel

some of those things to try and understand them Willy. Okay.

Because you know what, I am not a bad guy, and I think you know

that. I sense it from you. And while you’ve done some horrible,

horrible things Willy, part of me sees that you’re not a bad guy, do

you understand that? And two people, if they try and deal with each

other fairly and honestly, and that’s all I’m asking from you, can do

a lot, can do wonders. Do you see what I mean? And really Willy I’d

just like to understand how the anger, the killing, the bad things that

happened in your childhood, how you became different, how you

came to see yourself as different. I think you are intelligent, I

know that and I’m sure that you’ve wondered and I’m willing to

bet money, that you’ve thought about the unfairness of it all.

How unfair that you were trapped on the farm, that you could

never leave that, that, that the one chance that you’ve talked

about of having a, a life and a love and a relationship, that, that

was cut off by your duties on that farm. And I think, correct me if

I’m wrong but I think Dana even talks that the Will forced you to

stay on the farm if you were to get any money, is that true? Did

you tell her that? (PAUSE – 10 SECONDS) Did the Will force you to

stay on the farm until you were forty-two or something, is that

accurate?

ROBERT PICKTON: You guys know more about me than you do, than I do.

Page 189 of 252

(TAKES A DRINK)

SGT. DON ADAM: Willy we haven’t even begun to learn about you, like you, when I

talk about an avalanche coming down the hill, you haven’t even, I

sat with the, the head of this investigation, what we did is it’s so

big, there’s a hundred and thirty people working on it right now.

Hundred and thirty of the best policemen in the province, well you

know obviously we have good people throughout the province but

some of the best and we’ve broken it into components. There’s

about forty-five people that are on your farm right now, that are

gonna go, be going through this. They’ve collected thousands

and thousands of exhibits and, and have only just begun …

ROBERT PICKTON: Exhibits of what?

SGT. DON ADAM: Blood, hair, identification alright. You know how you were telling

that story to everybody who would listen about finding this stuff in

a cars and stuff, do you remember that, at the early stages? Do

you remember, cause you were scared and you thought I’ll tell

some stories Willy, that’s what you did.

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yes. How much do you want to bet?

ROBERT PICKTON: It’s true.

SGT. DON ADAM: It’s true that you did find things in cars? (ADAM LEANS

FORWARD) You did Willy but you didn’t, you didn’t find blood in

cars and go and put it on the walls did you? Do you see what I

mean? I mean you’re a logical, intelligent guy, I may find for some

reason I may find this bottle in a car, right. And I may take it into my

house and put it down. And the police could find that bottle in my

house cause that’s what you were thinking with the inhaler. I found

the inhaler in a car, that’s what you told everybody. And now you’re

locked with that story, you can’t change that story. You’ve told too

many people.

ROBERT PICKTON: It is.

SGT. DON ADAM: And you’ve said gee, that’s a nice looking inhaler, I took it into my

house.

ROBERT PICKTON: I took into my shop first.

SGT. DON ADAM: Okay, and then I took it into my house and now the cops found it.

But what you didn’t realize is that we found all the other things

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that show, that you didn’t find that inhaler in a car, because why

didn’t you talk about the four other inhalers that are all used,

they’re of no value. The fact that they’re layered in your garbage,

the fact that there’s other material that’s in your house, the fact

that there’s DNA, yours and hers linked together Willy, do you see

what I mean?

ROBERT PICKTON: Layered? Where, where did you find, where is this at?

SGT. DON ADAM: We have an article alright, that I’m not prepared to tell you what is

it, that has got her DNA on it like that, her DNA.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: And then it’s got your DNA together. Sereena ABOTSWAYS it’s

yours and hers together and it’s not the inhaler. It’s not the

inhaler. And Willy we’ve got her blood alright, in there, well Willy

you didn’t get her blood from in a car and carry it and put it inside

your place, do you understand? Do you understand like you

know, we tell stories, I don’t blame you for making up these

stories do you understand that, I don’t blame you for lying

because you’re trying to get away and that’s a human thing, and I

would too. When I was a young cop right, back in the days when

I was in Coquitlam back in the early seventies, mid-seventies I

guess, well probably later and I’d do something wrong cause

when you know, we make mistakes in life don’t we Willy? And I’d

do something wrong and I would get called in by my S/Sgt. and I’d

be afraid right. What would I do? My first thing I want to do Willy

is to lie, and make up a story not ‘cause I’m bad, because I’m

scared and you’re scared. You don’t want to be caught for this

Willy, I’m not naive I don’t think you had some secret wish to be

stopped. Maybe you did, but only you can tell me that. You

wanted to get away with it and you did a damn fine job. You

completely stumped the police and basically made them look like

fools, alright. And they’re gonna take a lot of heat for that Willy,

for why they didn’t catch Willy PICKTON quicker. You led them

on a merry chase for years. When you’re in prison, the other

prisoners are gonna like you for that, cause you made the police

look stupid. There you sat, right under their noses every few

months killing a girl and they didn’t have a clue. Willy, it’s

impressive. Like it’s impressive. You say to yourself I’m a simple

pig farmer do you remember saying that? Well you’re not. What

you’ve done is, is I mean it’s horrible alright, Willy you understand

that, it’s horrible, but it’s impressive. You may well be the most

successful serial killer in the North American Continent. You

know right now whether you are or not. Cause if you’re up over

fifty, you are. Now I wouldn’t bet against you being over fifty.

Page 191 of 252

Because I’ve got blood from eight women I can’t identify, I’ve got

twelve others, that, that I can connect with you, the numbers are

growing.

ROBERT PICKTON: Don’t know.

SGT. DON ADAM: Did they start by accident?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know.

SGT. DON ADAM: Take your time. (PICKTON TAKES A DRINK) (PAUSE 20 SEC)

What would happen would you just start to rage inside Willy or how

do you think it happened?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know.

SGT. DON ADAM: Did and I don’t want, I want you to tell me the truth. Is that fair

can you, look at me for a second Willy? We’ve come a long ways

can you promise to tell me just the truth here and if you don’t

know something can you tell me that? Cause I’m trying to

understand okay, do you understand that? The first ones was it a

situation where maybe you caught them trying to steal and it got

out of hand or, or anything like that or was it just anger and rage

took, took you over?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know. I don’t know.

SGT. DON ADAM: Let me ask you this question, was it hard to do at first, and then it

just gets easier, you don’t think about it as much, it doesn’t make

you feel as bad afterwards? Did you feel bad after them at first?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah, I think you do Willy. Look at me for a second, I think you

do. Or were you just so angry that you got knifed that, that they,

they infected your body. I know you hated them. We’ve talked to

tons of people who, who talked about how you felt the anger you

felt and you did didn’t you. Origin, you know, they infected you,

they stabbed you, they used you, they stole from you, didn’t they

Willy. And you lashed back, not at everyone though right.

(PICKTON SHAKES HEAD “NO”) How come you spared some of

them?

ROBERT PICKTON: They’re nice people.

SGT. DON ADAM: And so the nice ones you let go? It’s okay, it’s okay to tell the

truth Willy. Do you think that’s why you started this, was it just

Page 192 of 252

anger, rage.

ROBERT PICKTON: I’m not supposed to be talking to you right?

SGT. DON ADAM: No. You, you don’t have to, but it’s over you know that.

ROBERT PICKTON: Don’t matter what I say or anything else it’s still over.

SGT. DON ADAM: Look at me for a sec. You’re a human being Willy, it does matter.

ROBERT PICKTON: As I said, it doesn’t matter what I say, it’s over anyways.

SGT. DON ADAM: But you have to live and your family has to live with what’s

happened and if you’re not a sadist, if this, if you were driven by

rage and anger people can understand that. Do you see what I

mean? Already here today, you, you’ve given me a look, a hint

that, that this makes sense, that some of these girls tried to steal

from you, that they you know, that there’s some reasons. You

know, Willy when, when you go to a murder site, where someone’s

been killed the scene tells you certain things, alright. You’re trailer

tell us that there’s been murders. It tells us what girls have been in

there, it paints one picture alright. But the picture it’s almost like

it’s black and white Willy, there’s no colour to it. If, if I, if you and I

were investigators, and we walk into a house and there’s a

woman dead there, and the man’s there and he’s got the knife in

his hand, and her blood on him, and we know now that he killed

her. That’s the black and white evidence that we see. But only

he can sit there and explain that maybe she was cheating on him,

maybe he had been drinking, maybe she goaded him into it,

maybe she attacked him first, you see what I mean? Only

humans, by talking to each other, can explain and put, and put

colour to what otherwise is just a black and white picture Willy,

and that’s what I’m asking. (PICKTON UNZIPS HIS COAT) I’m

asking you for a chance to understand okay, that’s, that’s what I’m

asking for. Because you’ve said some things here that to me,

alright, are very, very important. You’ve told me that prior to

—————- stabbing you, prior to that anger, that rage that you

could no longer control right, could you control it or did it just take

you over? At times it just took you over, people have talked about

seeing that Willy. They talked about how you started hating them,

do you see what I mean? It’s almost like something took control of

you isn’t it? Do you understand Willy, what you did was wrong, you

know that right. Like I, you know, I’m not saying it’s right, but let me

ask you a question, some guys driving home and he’s a nice guy, a

normal guy, but he’s had a bad day at the office, his boss has, has,

has picked on him all day long. He’s worried about money, and

suddenly somebody cuts him off right. You know what road rage

V(6)

Page 193 of 252

is? And suddenly that guy jumps out of his car and goes up and

starts pounding on the other car, is that Willy, because he’s a

horrible, hideous monster or is it because he’s lost control. That his

life got out of control maybe for, (ADAM SNAPS FINGERS) for that

long. Do we judge that guy from that one thing. It sounds to me

Willy that you’re like a clock, that you would be okay and then, you

would just get wound tighter and tighter and what happens when

we keep winding a clock tighter and tighter? Something’s got to

give doesn’t it Willy. Eventually something’s got to give and this is

what happened. You see you have a chance to explain that to

people and you know what Willy, that’s important. It’s really

important, you have a chance to help, you have a chance to help

put this thing to rest. You have the chance to deal with it

(20:10) yourself and at some point in your life, come to understand why you

made the mistakes that you made. But like an alcoholic you can’t do

that Willy, until you deal with it. You have a chance to sit with me

here and tonight, and give another human being an opportunity to

understand how that rage took over, took control of you. Cause you

know what Willy, if you fell into a river and it was carrying you

away, that stream, carrying you away, tumbling you, and turning

you and if I was standing on the side, holding out my hands

saying Willy, reach out to me, I’m a human being, you’re not,

you’re foolish to go by without holding out your hand Willy, and

taking mine. Do you understand? But I am asking for the truth, is

that fair? You know, if you have been hurting these girls and killing

them way back into the eighties (PICKTON SHAKES HEAD “NO”) I

really would like you to tell me that. So when you tell me it started

after ——- – , I can believe that? Can I tell my investigators hey, we

need to look for who doing it before Willy started, is that, cause I

don’t want to waste their time Willy, is that fair?

ROBERT PICKTON: I’m not the only guy.

SGT. DON ADAM: How many do you think you’ve done?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know. (TAKES A DRINK)

SGT. DON ADAM: Would it be twenty?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know.

SGT. DON ADAM: You’ve got an idea though Willy. You’re, you’re, you’re a guy who

knows the dates of things, you’re, you know. You’ve a good idea.

Fifteen, twenty, where, where do you think it is, or thirty. It

doesn’t matter, just tell the truth.

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know.

V(6)

Page 194 of 252

SGT. DON ADAM: Well, I can put about twelve to you right now, okay, so there’s

those twelve, right. Ah, shall we start from sort of the most recent

and go backwards? You did Sereena, we know that Willy,

agreed?

ROBERT PICKTON: Sereena…

SGT. DON ADAM: Sereena ABOTSWAY, I’d have to and I apologize because I,

because I’m not a front line investigator, like I’m a manager, should

I get in, somebody in here who knows these girls and, and we can

discuss it or would you just want to talk to me. (FORDY COMES IN

AND GIVES HIM A PIECE OF PAPER THEN LEAVES) So this,

this is Sereena, alright. Okay, so we know that you, you know, you

did take her life, alright. Just tell me about that, let’s start, let’s take

little steps alright. I think you know right now, unless their pictures

are so different you’re not sure, I think you could, you could make a

choice and just reach out and touch the ones that ah, that you’ve

done Willy you know the ones that…

ROBERT PICKTON: (LAUGHING) You’re making me more of a mass killer than I am.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well how bad is it, how big is it?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’ t know.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well is it ten, twenty.

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well is it five, tell me you’ve done more than five, we’re gonna be

spending millions of dollars. Well it’s more than five, we both

know that. Agreed?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know.

SGT. DON ADAM: Willy, come on. We don’t need to play games with each other.

Are you just not quite convinced yet you want to tell me the details

of the killings? Is that, that’s what it is isn’t it? Come on, tell me

the truth. Are you still thinking what’s in it for me.

ROBERT PICKTON: What’s in it for me?

SGT. DON ADAM: Okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: If you don’t mind me asking.

Page 195 of 252

SGT. DON ADAM: No, that’s a fair question. Willy, firstly, …

ROBERT PICKTON: What’s, what’s gonna happen if I say something but I shouldn’t

say or what’s gonna happen to me, cause I haven’t got, I don’t have

a lawyer present. I don’t know nothing, nobody just by myself.

SGT. DON ADAM: Okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: So I don’t know what I’m do, what I’m getting up against. But I don’t

want to admit to anything.

SGT. DON ADAM: Alright. Firstly, you need to understand where I’m coming from

okay. Is that fair?

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: So I’m just gonna be completely up front with you. Willy, I know

that we can convict you. I know we can convict you on probably

three because I haven’t even talked about some of the evidence

that I have yet on some of the others, I haven’t even bothered

because there’s so much evidence. Like do you understand that,

and I’m not doing that to be mean to you, but I need to test your

truthfulness ultimately. Does that make sense to you? Like when

you decide when we, when you decide to tell me everything I

need to know that oh yeah, okay, Willy’s not just claiming to have

killed girls that he didn’t kill. He’s telling me the truth.

ROBERT PICKTON: But there’s another way to put it, if I say what, what, what you

guys want to hear, you guys will pull the fences down and

everything else, move out of there. Is that what you’d do?

SGT. DON ADAM: We no, no and the reason is this Willy. Is that I know you, alright.

I know you, alright and I know that there is gonna be some full

bodies buried in there, alright.

ROBERT PICKTON: (OVER TALKING)

SGT. DON ADAM: Pardon?

ROBERT PICKTON: Well I wish you luck.

SGT. DON ADAM: You’re saying they all went to the rendering plant?

ROBERT PICKTON: The rendering plant?

SGT. DON ADAM: Well wherever you took them.

Page 196 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: So if I tell you what, what you want to know, you’ll pull the fence all

down.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well…

ROBERT PICKTON: No you would not. Yes or no, just …

SGT. DON ADAM: What do you mean pull the fence down?

ROBERT PICKTON: Take the fences all down, and …

SGT. DON ADAM: Go away?

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well first…

ROBERT PICKTON: You want, you want me, you got me already.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah, I got you, you’re absolutely right.

ROBERT PICKTON: So I’m just, I’m asking from your point of view, yes or no. I want

to be straight.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah, then let me be completely straight with you. Absolutely no.

No. Willy I’m not prepared to, to make a trade…

ROBERT PICKTON: Okay. Well why don’t you go to the higher up and let me know.

SGT. DON ADAM: No, no. I’m as high up believe me, I’m way too high up to be

sitting here.

ROBERT PICKTON: No, I mean, no I meant, I meant the, I meant…

SGT. DON ADAM: I am high up.

ROBERT PICKTON: Okay. (OVER TALKING)

SGT. DON ADAM: I’m in charge.

ROBERT PICKTON: Because if I tell you everything you want to know, you guys back

out.

SGT. DON ADAM: No. See it can’t happen, it’s not gonna happen. Willy I’m, I can’t,

I’m not gonna negotiate. But here’s what, here’s, here’s the way it

goes alright. This statement that you’re giving here, this talk

Page 197 of 252

we’re having is all admissible in court.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: And what would make it inadmissible in other words, what would

make it of no value is if you and I make a deal. I don’t…

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t want a deal.

SGT. DON ADAM: …no, no, no.

ROBERT PICKTON: You have put a lot of fences on (OVER TALKING)

SGT. DON ADAM: No but you’re not, you’re not hearing me, you’re not hearing me.

ROBERT PICKTON: Okay.

SGT. DON ADAM: That’s of no value to me because it’s not evidence anymore, alright.

ROBERT PICKTON: No, then I’m talking about going to court or whatever.

SGT. DON ADAM: What and pleading guilty?

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: To how many?

ROBERT PICKTON: Whatever charged with.

SGT. DON ADAM: No, no, no. No because I’m not, I don’t, you mean two?

ROBERT PICKTON: No. I didn’t say two.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well you’re only charged with two right now.

ROBERT PICKTON: Two right now.

SGT. DON ADAM: Like firstly…

ROBERT PICKTON: It is, you says, you says, it’s more but…

SGT. DON ADAM: Well yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: But I’ll finally admit to everything if you pull the fences down.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well, but I want to firstly I’m, we’re not, I’m not making a deal. Right,

can you understand that?

Page 198 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: Okay.

SGT. DON ADAM: This is…

ROBERT PICKTON: Okay well I just want, I just want to …

SGT. DON ADAM: No, no but I want, I want to get a clear picture in my mind what

you’re saying to me.

ROBERT PICKTON: Okay.

SGT. DON ADAM: But I am not, like understand, this is not a negotiation to make a

deal. But I guess what I’m saying is, are you talking about twenty

girls, are you talking about thirty, are you talking about what?

ROBERT PICKTON: I’m talking about everything on my behalf.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well but, Willy, what kind of numbers are we talking about?

ROBERT PICKTON: Your going to every, everything, everything die.

SGT. DON ADAM: Pardon.

ROBERT PICKTON: And then you let everything die off and you…

SGT. DON ADAM: I told, I told you that’s a non-starter.

ROBERT PICKTON: Okay.

SGT. DON ADAM: Okay. But let me ask you a question, alright, because I’m not gonna

deal on how things will go in court, I’m not gonna deal with how you

know, do the investigation, I’m not, like I…

ROBERT PICKTON: Okay…

SGT. DON ADAM: Do you know…

ROBERT PICKTON: I mean, I, I’m only asking. There’s no problem, no, no harm in

asking.

SGT. DON ADAM: Do you remember yeah, no, no, no I know. But I, but I need you

to understand…

ROBERT PICKTON: (OVER TALKING) I just want to like to get, get everybody else’s

lives back together again and get everything back to rest.

Page 199 of 252

SGT. DON ADAM: But then why don’t you do what’s right, for you and everyone else

and, and for Nancy and your brother, and allow people to come to

an understanding by at least telling me alright, Don there’s

twenty-five, there’s thirty, what, what is it Willy? Give me a

number so I have an idea of what you’re saying.

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know.

SGT. DON ADAM: But you can’t lie to me. Don’t bother lying to me.

ROBERT PICKTON: I’m not lying to you.

SGT. DON ADAM: No, no, no I know, I see that. How many?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t want to negotiate like that right at this stage. Cause then

the problem then is I’ll be committed to something.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well I’m, I’m not negotiating like…

ROBERT PICKTON: Okay.

SGT. DON ADAM: I’m …

ROBERT PICKTON: Cause I’m, I’m like you I’m just asking.

SGT. DON ADAM: Willy, you’re, you’re negotiating Willy, I’m not negotiating.

ROBERT PICKTON: I’m asking you that, that’s all I’m asking, I was only asking you,

that’s all I am.

SGT. DON ADAM: No, I know. Okay, but you understand I’m not dealing, I’m not

prepared to deal you know. I am prepared to tell you this.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: Is that no one is gonna be making a deal with, with ah, ah,

Lynn right, to screw you if you choose to tell the truth here tonight.

So that’s a, that is a win for you, that’s one win but that has nothing

to do with, with ah, you know, deals in court or deals on, on

evidence or what have you, like on, on the search. But it is a win

Willy and never think it isn’t, alright. Because when you’re caught

between a rock and a hard place, like you are, sometimes you

can’t have …

ROBERT PICKTON: But anyways like I says, think it over.

SGT. DON ADAM: I don’t have to think it over.

Page 200 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: Okay.

SGT. DON ADAM: Because Willy, here’s our situation, alright. Is that I know we can

move ahead and collect the, the evidence, alright. The reason …

ROBERT PICKTON: But you’re, everything will go back to back to normal and

everybody else will go, will go to their own place where they were

before and start all over and, and so on and so forth. But the

problem is if you like I, I know all numbers, everything else so but

that’s here nor there. But …

SGT. DON ADAM: But let me ask you, let me ask you a question, alright, just I want

to clarify your knowledge base. I wasn’t there but years ago,

when you guys were, had those trucks buried.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. DON ADAM: Okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: The trucks was never buried.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well cars or whatever it was.

ROBERT PICKTON: (OVER TALKING)

SGT. DON ADAM: A yellow Mustang or something.

ROBERT PICKTON: A yellow Mustang.

SGT. DON ADAM: Something, I don’t know Willy, here’s the point…

ROBERT PICKTON: There was a couple of Ford pick-up trucks.

SGT. DON ADAM: Okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: And they were put in, underneath a hog field pile, because

somebody else was dismantling them over there and that was story

beginning, start to finish.

SGT. DON ADAM: Okay. They said your memory was so good Willy, that you walked

into that field of muck, and … (ADAM STANDS UP)

ROBERT PICKTON: It wasn’t muck, it wasn’t muck, it was a hog field.

SGT. DON ADAM: Okay, but you walked over …

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ROBERT PICKTON: And told them exactly where everything is yeah.

SGT. DON ADAM: And said twenty-five feet down…

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. DON ADAM: You know whatever, what did you say to them?

ROBERT PICKTON: No, it’s underneath that pile there, there’s some over there, and

some over there, and some over there, and that’s it.

SGT. DON ADAM: (ADAM SITS DOWN) Do you have that capability to do that with

these girls?

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. DON ADAM: Why not?

ROBERT PICKTON: Cause you’re barking at the wrong tree.

SGT. DON ADAM: You’re saying you, you didn’t dispose of them in there.

ROBERT PICKTON: (INDECIPHERABLE)

SGT. DON ADAM: Would there be any my question would be this then, other than your

word, other than your word is there, how

could you prove to me that that they’re somewhere else, like how

would prove to me that they’re, how can you help me find them,

that’s my question?

ROBERT PICKTON: Can’t.

SGT. DON ADAM: Then how can you explain to me that, that’s possible.

ROBERT PICKTON: You gotta take my word for it.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well Willy, how can we take your word for it? You won’t tell me

the numbers whether it’s twenty, thirty, you know.

ROBERT PICKTON: I just gonna blind folded here. Cause I have no lawyer present,

no nothing.

SGT. DON ADAM: No.

ROBERT PICKTON: And like I said, I’m getting nailed to the cross.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well yeah, you’re but let…

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ROBERT PICKTON: And the problem is I mean, I’m just only asking, it’s just something

to think about.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah, you want to negotiate…

ROBERT PICKTON: Yes.

SGT. DON ADAM: But Willy you gotta look at the position you’re in.

ROBERT PICKTON: I know I’m in, I’m know I’m looking at the position I’m in. I’m

burying myself deeper than I even have, ever have.

SGT. DON ADAM: You tell me what’s the difference between us pulling together

twelve charges against you and you’re admitting to twenty, like

what’s the difference, other than to the families.

ROBERT PICKTON: Well.

SGT. DON ADAM: No, no but I’m asking you, I’m not, I want just…

ROBERT PICKTON: Save, it’ll save a year of investigation, right (TAKES A DRINK).

SGT. DON ADAM: But how?

ROBERT PICKTON: You said you’re gonna dig the whole place up.

SGT. DON ADAM: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: Well start digging. (LAUGHING)

SGT. DON ADAM: Well we will.

ROBERT PICKTON: (LAUGHING) I mean interesting.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well Willy here’s what we get to, alright.

ROBERT PICKTON: I know, I know, I know, I know the situation I’m in.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah, you’re screwed, alright.

ROBERT PICKTON: Should not be be talkin’ to you but the problem is again.

SGT. DON ADAM: No

ROBERT PICKTON: I’m screwed.

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SGT. DON ADAM: You’re screwed.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah. But, but…

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s here nor there.

SGT. DON ADAM: But, but let’s just let’s just talk about this like two gentlemen,

alright.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: You’re smart, you’re not overcome, you’re, you’re as cagey as a

fox Willy so let’s just…

ROBERT PICKTON: Well I don’t know about that.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well I think you are.

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know about that.

SGT. DON ADAM: Okay, know this.

ROBERT PICKTON: I just want to get everybody else, to get back to, back to, back to,

their life back again.

SGT. DON ADAM: That’s fair and, and I want to do what’s best for this investigation.

So I want you to tell me the truth, I want to know how bad the

situation is, I want to know what other killers I’m looking for.

ROBERT PICKTON: Right.

SGT. DON ADAM: You’ve told me it’s not just you, agreed, there’s more out there.

Okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: More…about that.

SGT. DON ADAM: Do you know any others, like is there other people that you’ve

worked with that you know about?

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. DON ADAM: No.

ROBERT PICKTON: No you’re, you gotta look for a different territory.

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SGT. DON ADAM: Alright. Without giving numbers how big a chunk are we talking

about? The truth Willy, don’t, don’t undersell me, don’t, is that

fair. How big a chunk? Where would I draw this line, in half?

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know, see I haven’t looked at it that much.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well just numbers, you know there’s forty-eight numbers there.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: Alright. There’s no doubt in my mind you know, you know all of

the girls you killed. Agreed.

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well I mean, you don’t know them by name, but they tell me you

don’t take drugs, is that true or not true. . .

ROBERT PICKTON: Hmm.

SGT. DON ADAM: . . . They tell me your not a druggie. Alright, so you’re not and

you’re not a drinker, so when you took these girls lives you were

sober right, agreed. So you know, like you know, so you know how

many agreed. It’s not like you’re searching for a number.

ROBERT PICKTON: Well, what do you want me to say?

SGT. DON ADAM: Well if you’re telling me Don, I don’t know how many I killed, if you

really, you know, Willy I don’t believe you. Because you, I don’t

think killing is not like, how many times you’ve been to the A&W

do you see what I mean? You know how many times you’ve

killed, I mean everyone of those kills is gonna be a special

moment in your life.

ROBERT PICKTON: Umm, no.

SGT. DON ADAM: How do you mean, I don’t even understand that, you mean like it’s

just nothing.

ROBERT PICKTON: No, not really. Nothing. I don’t know.

SGT. DON ADAM: See I need to understand that. Like were they, when you killed

these girls was it a big deal to you or was it just like killing them,

one of the pigs, or somewhere in the middle or, or what like I’m

trying to understand.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum. (PAUSE) Well I don’t know, don’t know what to say

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neither.

SGT. DON ADAM: Let me ask you this question Willy. Did you ever kill any of them

that you regretted, that you actually thought after do you know

what, she was, she was a nice girl, I should have maybe let her

go. Did you ever have those kind of thoughts?

ROBERT PICKTON: (PAUSE 30 SEC) What do you want me to say?

SGT. DON ADAM: The truth, that’s what we agreed to talk about.

ROBERT PICKTON: But the problem is like I asked you a question already and you

didn’t, you says you can’t do what I tell you right.

SGT. DON ADAM: Cause I can’t negotiate, here’s the story Willy…

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: …if I negotiate with you for you to tell me how you killed these

girls, where you killed them, how many you killed you know, what

you did with them, alright. If I negotiated a deal, some sort of a

deal, then nothing we say is admissible in a court. Alright, so it’s

not worth getting, like it’s not worth getting. (PICKTON TAKES A

DRINK) Everything we’ve dealt with here today, as far as I’m

concerned, there’s been no deals, we certainly you know, you’re,

you know, you would like to make deal agreed, we know that. But

I’m telling you I can’t make a deal.

ROBERT PICKTON: Okay.

SGT. DON ADAM: Alright, even if I wanted to make a deal, I’m not gonna make a

deal, alright. But that doesn’t mean that there aren’t wins for you

in telling the truth. Alright. So let’s just talk about what I can talk

about for a second. And you need to make a decision that that

makes sense to me, is that fair Willy?

ROBERT PICKTON: Well,..

SGT. DON ADAM: Firstly, if what you’re telling me is true, that Dave is not involved in

this…

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s true.

SGT. DON ADAM: Alright. Dave has talked about taking a polygraph test, do you

think he’ll take it, that he wasn’t involved in the killing?

ROBERT PICKTON: He was not involved in anything.

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SGT. DON ADAM: Alright.

ROBERT PICKTON: And I’ll swear on that, I meant…

SGT. DON ADAM: Then why is Dave saying that…

ROBERT PICKTON: He’s protecting me.

SGT. DON ADAM: Alright, so he’s, now are you protecting Dinah or did you tell Dave

that Dinah had killed some of the girls.

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s true.

SGT. DON ADAM: That’s true you told Dave that, or it’s true that she did kill some of

them?

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, it’s true I told Dave that.

SGT. DON ADAM: And is it true that Dinah did kill some of them? Please tell me

the truth.

ROBERT PICKTON: I gotta talk to her here first. I have to. I don’t want to say

something wrong. But if you want me to I’ll bring everything out

but I gotta talk to her first.

SGT. DON ADAM: But what you’re, but what you seem to be saying to me, alright…

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: …is, is that …

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t want to commit myself to her or anything else.

SGT. DON ADAM: To what she’s done.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah, okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: Because I won’t tell, want you to see what, see what’s gonna

happen first, see what she wants to do. But I …

SGT. DON ADAM: But what choice would she have I mean she really only has two

choices right.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, I know but…

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SGT. DON ADAM: One would be to own up that she killed some of the girls with you.

I could take, would I, let me try and understand this Dave.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: Either you guys killed some of the girls together, alright. Or are

you telling me that even without you she killed some of the girls?

ROBERT PICKTON: No comment.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah, that’s the one, okay. So you don’t want to talk about that.

Alright, let’s put that aside and you would want to what, discuss

with her, how she feels about you talking about that?

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well I, I don’t think she’s gonna say well, go ahead and tell them

the truth.

ROBERT PICKTON: Why not?

SGT. DON ADAM: Well I guess cause she’s guilty of murder then.

ROBERT PICKTON: No, not necessarily.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well then I gotta, I don’t, I don’t understand that.

ROBERT PICKTON: I mean myself, I just got, like I say I just to talk to her in person.

SGT. DON ADAM: But is it sort of one of these situations, what you’re saying is, am I

gonna take the blame for everything, including stuff she’s done. Is

that, that’s what you’re telling me right, that’s what you got to

negotiate with her, not with me. Now you gotta know Dave, that

from my…

ROBERT PICKTON: Dave…

SGT. DON ADAM: Or Dave, sorry.

ROBERT PICKTON: You said it twice.

SGT. DON ADAM: Do you, do you want me to call you Willy or Rob, which…

ROBERT PICKTON: Don’t matter.

SGT. DON ADAM: Pick one for me.

Page 208 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: Don’t matter, don’t matter.

SGT. DON ADAM: What do your friends call you? Both or…

ROBERT PICKTON: Whatever.

SGT. DON ADAM: I’ll, I’ll call you Willy. I’ve known you as Willy but that’s…

ROBERT PICKTON: But I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna walk anyways, and I’m not

gonna run.

SGT. DON ADAM: Okay, good.

ROBERT PICKTON: But the problem is I mean, everybody has to get their life back

together again, and put everything to rest.

SGT. DON ADAM: But Willy you gotta say, say we’re cops together.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: And Dinah has killed some of these girls on her own, I mean

really…

ROBERT PICKTON: No comment.

SGT. DON ADAM: No but we can’t just let her go, you gotta agree with that right.

ROBERT PICKTON: No comment. I’ll take the fall for anything else.

SGT. DON ADAM: Are you gonna take the fall for Lynn too, because that’s, that…

ROBERT PICKTON: If that, if that’s what it comes down to, but the problem is like I

said, I gotta speak to Dinah.

SGT. DON ADAM: Okay. Let’s put Dinah aside then, we’re not gonna talk about Dinah,

let’s talk about Lynn. Lynn betrayed you, after you saved her life, is

that true, that you saved her life twice. I think it is, isn’t it.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: She was blackmailing you.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: And trust me when I tell you that if you choose not to talk about

what she’s done, they will end up making a deal with her and

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she’ll walk away scott free and probably try and get some of the

reward money for heaven sakes. So I don’t see where you owe

her any loyalty. Would you agree with me on that?

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: Agreed.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: So, one of the things that you talk about what, what’s in it for you,

would be to finally pay her back for all the betrayal she’s done.

Like you’re in a good, powerful position there.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: Alright, you agree with me? Makes sense doesn’t it?

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, but I still got to talk to Dinah first.

SGT. DON ADAM: Let’s just travel one more road though, to make sure we

understand each other.

ROBERT PICKTON: I do.

SGT. DON ADAM: Is that if you lie about anything.

ROBERT PICKTON: I’m not, I’m not, I have nothing to lie about. I mean I’m nailed to

the cross. I’m the head honcho right.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah, yeah, you are.

ROBERT PICKTON: So…

SGT. DON ADAM: But…

ROBERT PICKTON: …what have I got to lie about.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well you might lie to try to…

ROBERT PICKTON: You either, you got me, you got me, you got me and …

SGT. DON ADAM: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: …I’m nailed to the cross so.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah. I agree with you.

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ROBERT PICKTON: There you are.

SGT. DON ADAM: But my question is…

ROBERT PICKTON: But there will be.

SGT. DON ADAM: …are you, are you…

ROBERT PICKTON: A lot of people coming down.

SGT. DON ADAM: With you?

ROBERT PICKTON: A lot of people.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well now that’s more interesting.

ROBERT PICKTON: But that’s here nor there.

SGT. DON ADAM: Ex, explain that to me.

ROBERT PICKTON: Oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I can’t do that.

SGT. DON ADAM: Why not Willy?

ROBERT PICKTON: No, no…

SGT. DON ADAM: Well you gotta give me some hints so I know what I’m talking about.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well give me some hints then, what…

ROBERT PICKTON: Well there’s a lot of the other people involved too. But otherwise,

like I said, I’ll just take the fall.

SGT. DON ADAM: Let me ask you a question alright.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: We have had a report about a thing called blood spot out there.

ROBERT PICKTON: What?

SGT. DON ADAM: Blood sport. We’ve, we’ve had a story about ah,…

ROBERT PICKTON: What’s that?

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SGT. DON ADAM: People going out there and that there was a group of you guys

that would, would kill the girls.

ROBERT PICKTON: (LAUGHING)

SGT. DON ADAM: Is there any truth to that.

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. DON ADAM: Alright.

ROBERT PICKTON: Never.

SGT. DON ADAM: Okay. Are there other guys that were involved when, when some

of these girls lost their lives, is that what you’re telling me?

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. DON ADAM: Just you. You and, and, and, what, whatever the other girl.

ROBERT PICKTON: There’s other people involved but, but that’s here nor there.

SGT. DON ADAM: Okay, give me ah, without naming names, just give me a picture

of how that comes together, so I can understand where, what I’m

thinking, I’m not following you. So don’t name names, but just

give me a picture of how that comes together.

ROBERT PICKTON: Well, there’s other people involved.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah, but Willy, I, your, I’m confused.

ROBERT PICKTON: I know. I know that because the problem is this is way over your

head and I, like I said I’m not gonna, I’ll take the fall for everything,

but the problem is I’m the head honcho and you got me now.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: And I got to make sure and go from there.

SGT. DON ADAM: Are you hungry at all?

ROBERT PICKTON: Well, I don’t deserve to eat.

SGT. DON ADAM: Oh, will you stop that. What can I get you?

ROBERT PICKTON: Nothing.

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SGT. DON ADAM: Pork sandwich?

ROBERT PICKTON: Nothing. I don’t deserve to eat.

SGT. DON ADAM: Alright, I have to go to the washroom, do you have to go the

washroom?

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. DON ADAM: You’re ah, what a guy. Can I get you another Minute Maid to drink?

Alright, you stay here, don’t touch anything, I’m gonna go have a

whizz, I’ll come back, is what you’ve told me here tonight, the truth

so far.

ROBERT PICKTON: Well, like I told you, did I ever lie to you yet? I mean, I’m the only,

I did tell you a few stories…

SGT. DON ADAM: Which ones were those?

ROBERT PICKTON: I told you a few stories but the problem is you got

me right.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: I’m the head honcho, you know that.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: So.

SGT. DON ADAM: Is it true when you tell me that Dave is not involved in any of the

killings.

ROBERT PICKTON: Dave’s not involved in anything.

SGT. DON ADAM: Is it now, and don’t lie to me, promise me …

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: Okay, is it true that ah, when you say that the killings started after

ah, ——- —————— stabbed you, I kinda got the sense that

maybe they started a bit before that.

20:39:47

ROBERT PICKTON: At this stage, no comment.

V(6)

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SGT. DON ADAM: Okay. But definitely afterwards. (PICKTON NODS “YES”). Okay. I

got it. Let me step out and have a, a whizz, ah, can I get you

anything. Okay. I’ll be back in just a couple of seconds. (LEAVES

ROOM 11 MIN 55 SEC) let me grab a water Willy. I mean do you

want water?

ROBERT PICKTON: Is the washroom right here?

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah, there is. Come on with me. It’s ah, 8:52 I’m taking Willy to the

washroom.

(PAUSE 4 MIN) (FORDY PUTS 2 WATER BOTTLES IN THE ROOM)

SGT. DON ADAM: Go ahead, get back into the room. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, they grabbed

us some water. Good, have a seat. It’s ah, 8:56 and ah, Willy just

went to the washroom, ah, I have to account Willy, (PICKTON

YAWNING) for the conversation, we had outside the room ah, you

admired the architecture and ah, I agreed with you. There was no

other conversation was there.

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. DON ADAM: Okay. And obviously I didn’t threaten you or promise you

anything, we didn’t have any discussions.

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. DON ADAM: Let me ask you a question Willy, alright. I’ve told you I’m not

prepared to ah, negotiate.

ROBERT PICKTON: Okay.

SGT. DON ADAM: Alright.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. DON ADAM: But my partner…

ROBERT PICKTON: I understand what you’re saying.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah, my partner Jim HUNTER said something to me which,

which I put to you.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: Is he did say that, obviously if you choose to explain to us what you

did, and why you did it, and how you did it, if that makes sense, it

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could change the, the way we investigate the farm. Do you see

what I mean?

ROBERT PICKTON: Run that by me again.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well, if you choose to explain what you’ve done, right. How many

you’ve killed, how you killed them, what you did with them, then

that’s an avenue of investigation we can follow up and if we, you

know, then we would conceivably by good investigation, not have

to be at the farm as long. And that’s, that’s just logical right, does

that make sense to you?

ROBERT PICKTON: A little bit, but that’s not what I asked for is it?

SGT. DON ADAM: What did you ask for?

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, if I, cause you got me right?

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: I’m the head, head guy right?

SGT. DON ADAM: Well let me ask you a question.

ROBERT PICKTON: Okay.

SGT. DON ADAM: Okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: My eyes open, and I’m fucked anyways so…I’m listening.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: The only problem is…

SGT. DON ADAM: Robert, you killed Sereena and Mona, agreed?

ROBERT PICKTON: I won’t admit to anything yet.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well it’s a simple question.

ROBERT PICKTON: Okay, but (INDECIPHERABLE) I won’t admit to anything yet, but,

but go ahead.

SGT. DON ADAM: Alright, so that’s the girl, that’s the, the one with the inhaler.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

Page 215 of 252

SGT. DON ADAM: Alright.

ROBERT PICKTON: I won’t admit to anything yet but, but go ahead.

SGT. DON ADAM: But did, my question is real cut and dried. Did you kill them by

yourself or was Dinah involved in them, in those two?

ROBERT PICKTON: No comment.

SGT. DON ADAM: Which kinda tells me that she was involved.

ROBERT PICKTON: Don’t know.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well…

ROBERT PICKTON: At this stage.

SGT. DON ADAM: Don’t say that, you do know but you don’t want to say. Is that

fair?

ROBERT PICKTON: Don’t know.

SGT. DON ADAM: Because if you didn’t know, then what happens later when you

decide to tell the truth, and people say…

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know.

SGT. DON ADAM: …well you.

ROBERT PICKTON: Every, everything will, like I says, my word is my word.

SGT. DON ADAM: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: Now you know me. But there’ll be other people coming down too.

SGT. DON ADAM: Okay, without naming names, give me an idea of, of how they’re

gonna come down, so I can understand.

ROBERT PICKTON: There will be other murderers or whatever, other people, other,

other people charged, but that’s here not there.

SGT. DON ADAM: Men or women?

ROBERT PICKTON: A man.

SGT. DON ADAM: Man, one other man.

Page 216 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: Now, this guy that talked about you, you, you made a comment

that I got stuff on him, do you remember making that…

ROBERT PICKTON: I got, I got lots of stuff on him, yeah.

SGT. DON ADAM: Is that, that, I take it that’s not murder stuff that’s just what, thefts,

or other …

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, other stuff, yeah.

SGT. DON ADAM: It shocked you Willy, didn’t it, that he, . . .

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: . . . that he chose to …

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: …to say, tell what you’ve told him. Why do you think he did that,

like just…

ROBERT PICKTON: Just to hear himself talk.

SGT. DON ADAM: But you gotta admit that you were careless to, to have told the

number of people you told what you were doing. Like that wasn’t,

in hindsight, you gotta admit that wasn’t a smart thing to do.

ROBERT PICKTON: What’s that? Tell who?

SGT. DON ADAM: To tell, well I mean I’ve got the statements right,…

ROBERT PICKTON: To, from who? A lot of it is all a lot of it is all gossip.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well no but some of it is directly, things you have told them. I

agree with you, some is, we’re getting a lot of that sort of gossip.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, a lot of it, lot, a lot, a lot of gossip here.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah, but a lot, you gotta admit that you, you’ve made mistakes.

ROBERT PICKTON: There is a lot of gossip here.

SGT. DON ADAM: But you gotta admit to me you’ve made mistakes, you’ve ended

up telling people you shouldn’t have told.

Page 217 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: A lot of gossip here, again a lot, a lot of stuff came from Lynn.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah, oh yeah, I know that. I know all of those stories.

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s where all the gossip come from and went on and on and

on. That’s where it come from.

SGT. DON ADAM: Do you think ultimately we’ll be charging Lynn, when you tell the

truth? Like…

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, probably, yeah.

SGT. DON ADAM: In taking part or in simply knowing that you were doing it?

ROBERT PICKTON: In both. Even more than that too, that’s only part.

SGT. DON ADAM: Was there any ah, were there any snuff films made or anything

like that Willy?

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. DON ADAM: Nothing like that.

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. DON ADAM: Is that true?

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: Nothing shocks me right, I mean I’ve been a cop for almost thirty

years.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: When you finally open up are we gonna be talking about torture

and stuff like that or?

ROBERT PICKTON: No. Nothing like that.

SGT. DON ADAM: When you finally decide to talk about this, are you, do you know

why you were killing them, like in your own mind, do you know what

it was? (PAUSE 5 SEC) Like do you think you understand what

happened, why you ended up killing these girls, like do you, you

know you’re intelligent…

ROBERT PICKTON: No. I mean I won’t ah, no comment at this stage.

SGT. DON ADAM: Is that right.

Page 218 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: Cause I gotta talk to Dinah first. (PAUSE 10 SEC)

SGT. DON ADAM: When, and I realize you know, I realize your position right.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: When you look at my board here.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: Alright, take, just take a look at it.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, I looked at it a couple of times, yeah.

SGT. DON ADAM: How many do you think you recognize? Like if we, if you were

free to talk right now, how many could you reach out and touch?

ROBERT PICKTON: You can touch ‘em all. (PICKTON POINTS AT PICTURE BOARD)

SGT. DON ADAM: No, but I mean, that, that you killed.

ROBERT PICKTON: You make me more of a mass murderer than I am.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well you’re saying you haven’t killed forty-eight.

ROBERT PICKTON: Hum?

SGT. DON ADAM: But you’ve killed women that are not on here too?

ROBERT PICKTON: Forty, what, what are you…

SGT. DON ADAM: Well there’s forty-eight right?

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. DON ADAM: Okay. So my question you know, you, like you said, Don, don’t

make me more of a mass murderer than I am, agreed?

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s right.

SGT. DON ADAM: Okay, but my question is, is it’s become clear to me that there’s,

there’s women that you’ve, you have killed that aren’t on here, you

would agree with me on that, that…

ROBERT PICKTON: No, no, no, no comment.

Page 219 of 252

SGT. DON ADAM: Why not, why not just, why not tell me the truth.

ROBERT PICKTON: Because if they’re not on there, I’m not charged for it right?

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah, but what’s the difference between two or twenty or it makes

no difference to the sentence, I mean.

ROBERT PICKTON: I could say a hundred and fifty too.

SGT. DON ADAM: Pardon?

ROBERT PICKTON: I could say a hundred and fifty too, but it’s not any truth involved

there neither, right?

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah, no and I don’t…

ROBERT PICKTON: I mean, I mean myself I mean ah, we’re, we’re gasping for

something that’s not there.

SGT. DON ADAM: Okay, explain that to me.

ROBERT PICKTON: Like if you had a hundred and fifty on there.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: Or you had ten on there.

SGT. DON ADAM: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: Just these are the ones here you’re concentrating on.

SGT. DON ADAM: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: Right.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: Now whatever other ones are not on there.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: I’m not charged right?

SGT. DON ADAM: That’s right. But you’re only, you’re only charged for two that are

on there.

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s right.

Page 220 of 252

SGT. DON ADAM: I mean you will be charged with more obviously. Right.

ROBERT PICKTON: I’ll, probably, maybe.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well I can see yeah. Will Willy…

ROBERT PICKTON: Right.

SGT. DON ADAM: I mean the DNA’s pouring in. But you see, I mean I, I gotta tell

you, I’m sitting here thinking well why am I even having this

conversation with you.

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s what I’m asking you, I mean myself, I want to ask you, I

want ask you the same thing. But the problem is ah, like, like I

says I’m the head honcho.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah, okay, but when you say head honcho like…

ROBERT PICKTON: I’m the head guy.

SGT. DON ADAM: So without you, none of these murders would have happened, is

what you’re telling me. Well is that true or would the other guy

that you haven’t told me about….

ROBERT PICKTON: No. No.

SGT. DON ADAM: Without you he wouldn’t have killed anybody.

ROBERT PICKTON: No, no.

SGT. DON ADAM: Is he a decent guy?

ROBERT PICKTON: No comment again on that.

SGT. DON ADAM: Biker.

ROBERT PICKTON: No comment again.

SGT. DON ADAM: Am I close though?

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. DON ADAM: Or you don’t want to talk about it?

ROBERT PICKTON: Don’t want to talk about it. (PAUSE 10 SEC)

SGT. DON ADAM: So.

Page 221 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: There’ll be guns involved too.

SGT. DON ADAM: How do you mean guns?

ROBERT PICKTON: Well like I said, there’ll be guns involved too.

SGT. DON ADAM: Okay, but you need to explain that.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: I need to understand that more.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, but there’ll be I mean, myself if, if I commit alright, I mean

there will be, there will be at least one extra gun will be involved.

SGT. DON ADAM: That you’ve used to kill a girl?

ROBERT PICKTON: Mmmm, um, on other things. Yeah, that’s over your head, like I

said…

SGT. DON ADAM: Oh, wait a second, are you, are you hinting to me there’s, could

be some dead guys involved in this too?

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: How many?

ROBERT PICKTON: Well like I said, I’m nailed to the cross right now right.

SGT. DON ADAM: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: And I’m just asking what do you think if…

SGT. DON ADAM: Are, are you, if I was, are you hinting that, like they’ve always

thought that maybe the Angels used your place…

ROBERT PICKTON: No, no, no, no…

SGT. DON ADAM: Not Angels stuff.

ROBERT PICKTON: No. No. No.

SGT. DON ADAM: But other stuff.

ROBERT PICKTON: Other stuff yeah.

Page 222 of 252

SGT. DON ADAM: But how many? Like one, ten, five, what do you think?

ROBERT PICKTON: Ah, one anyways.

SGT. DON ADAM: That you did or someone else did?

ROBERT PICKTON: Somebody else did.

SGT. DON ADAM: And you were there.

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well I mean, how do you know that he did it? I don’t understand.

ROBERT PICKTON: Cause he did.

SGT. DON ADAM: And what, brought the body to you to get rid of.

ROBERT PICKTON: Didn’t.

SGT. DON ADAM: Pardon?

ROBERT PICKTON: And he didn’t.

SGT. DON ADAM: I’m sorry. What.

ROBERT PICKTON: He, he didn’t.

SGT. DON ADAM: Didn’t bring you the body?

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. DON ADAM: Hum, well we’re certainly travelling Willy.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, you are. You’re minds going around isn’t it.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well I hate to say it but really, the murder of some guy which is

probably going to be some drug thing or whatever, really doesn’t,

is irrelevant to me compared to…

ROBERT PICKTON: Right.

SGT. DON ADAM: …resolving this crime.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum. But again, first thing before I say anything.. .

SGT. DON ADAM: Um, hum.

Page 223 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: I gotta talk to Dinah in person, private.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well she’s in Ontario.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah. She, she’ll be coming out here anyways.

SGT. DON ADAM: Go ahead and?

ROBERT PICKTON: And then I’ll go from there.

SGT. DON ADAM: Alright. Where have we got to tonight then, what, we got to the

fact that …

ROBERT PICKTON: But only problem is like I says to you, you’s gotta turn the farm

back over. Cause you got me right. I’m the head guy. Dave

hasn’t, there’s nothing on Dave. Dave is noth, nobody.

SGT. DON ADAM: Dave wants to protect you though, let’s be honest, he’s been

running around trying to spread stories and …

ROBERT PICKTON: I know that.

SGT. DON ADAM: …cover you off and all that.

ROBERT PICKTON: I know that.

SGT. DON ADAM: You, you know like, …

ROBERT PICKTON: I know that too.

SGT. DON ADAM: I mean , you know.

ROBERT PICKTON: I know that too.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah, it’s like that whole story about the inhaler.

ROBERT PICKTON: I know that too.

SGT. DON ADAM: I mean…

ROBERT PICKTON: But that’s beside, that’s re-elevant, that’s

re-elevant, that’s re-elevant.

SGT. DON ADAM: Did Dave pressure you to tell ‘em whether you were involved in the

murders?

Page 224 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. DON ADAM: How did you end up telling them that ah, Dinah had forced you to

do one, or forced you to get rid of the body? How did that

conversation with them come up?

ROBERT PICKTON: Well he’s my brother.

SGT. DON ADAM: Okay. Go ahead.

ROBERT PICKTON: Let’s leave it with . . . that way there. I’m losing my brother

and he’s losing me. I had a good life with him for about fifty years.

SGT. DON ADAM: He’s your younger brother eh?

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: Do you love him?

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: Are you close with him?

ROBERT PICKTON: Very.

SGT. DON ADAM: Now people talked about him sort of bossing you around and, and ..

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, that’s good. I like that.

SGT. DON ADAM: It doesn’t bother you? Or do you get angry sometimes?

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, that’s alright.

SGT. DON ADAM: I used to fight with my brother too, so I know what that’s all about.

But we do have information on, on ah, Dave picking up, bringing

girls out.

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well …

ROBERT PICKTON: Guarantee it. Swear on that. I’ll swear on that.

SGT. DON ADAM: It’s just you?

ROBERT PICKTON: He, ah, just me?

Page 225 of 252

SGT. DON ADAM: Well you, you never been involved with the girls with him, . . .

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. DON ADAM: . . . even just sexually?

ROBERT PICKTON: No. Nothing to do with Dave.

SGT. DON ADAM: Now let me ask you a question my investigators asked me.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: Willy, you didn’t do a good job of cleaning up the girls blood. Like

you gotta agree with me, I mean….

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s right, I was sloppy.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yes, you were, that sums it up. (LAUGHING)

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s what I am, I’m sloppy.

SGT. DON ADAM: How could Dave not see that?

ROBERT PICKTON: Cause he’s too busy. Let’s leave it like that way there.

SGT. DON ADAM: Did you change that carpet because there was girls blood on it,

the old ah, the carpet that was in…

ROBERT PICKTON: No. Because I had carpet like this in there.

SGT. DON ADAM: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: And I wanted to go lino because it’s hard to keep it clean. But

that was when Allison’s blood was in there. Allison, Allison, what

do you call that?

SGT. DON ADAM: Ah, yeah, ah, —————–

ROBERT PICKTON: — ————- was…

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah, no you’re right her. Now but I mean.

ROBERT PICKTON: And there’s my blood on there too.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah, that’s right. Okay, but I can tell you that the DNA that we

got off of ah, ah, Sereena ABOTSWAY’s stuff, that wasn’t your

V(6)

V(6)

Page 226 of 252

blood, that was just DNA from you touching the same stuff as her.

It looked like she was staying with you for a couple of days.

ROBERT PICKTON: Who?

SGT. DON ADAM: Ah, ABOTSWAY, well her in, her inhalers alright, so there’s the

one inhaler that, that you left inside your house, that was in your

bedroom

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t know.

SGT. DON ADAM: You don’t remember is what you’re telling me. I take it that a

number of these girls came and stayed with you for a couple of

days?

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. DON ADAM: Are you sure, cause I’m hearing, I’m hearing that did happen.

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. DON ADAM: With everything that was going on Dave, how do you think you

managed…

ROBERT PICKTON: Dave?

SGT. DON ADAM: Oh, I’m sorry Willy, with, with everything that was going on how

did you, do you think you managed to avoid getting caught for so

long? (PAUSE)

ROBERT PICKTON: No comment.

SGT. DON ADAM: How long you got, it’s just bad police work or you know like what?

ROBERT PICKTON: Carelessness on my behalf.

SGT. DON ADAM: That’s how you did get caught you got careless. But Willy, you gotta

admit that if you were an investigator you’d go well, clearly…

ROBERT PICKTON: Well…

SGT. DON ADAM: …you used the, you used those

ROBERT PICKTON: Tit for tat more or less.

SGT. DON ADAM: You used the, yeah, but (INDECIPHERABLE).

Page 227 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: I’m leaving you in a bind I know that.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well I’m just you know….

ROBERT PICKTON: I know that.

SGT. DON ADAM: You know, things are a little unclear still eh.

ROBERT PICKTON: I did know that too.

SGT. DON ADAM: See cause one of the things worries me alright, say, say you

and I sit down tomorrow, the day after and decide to talk about

everything. Alright.

ROBERT PICKTON: Like I said, it’s something to sleep on.

SGT. DON ADAM: Oh yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: I’m not, I’m not telling you not to sleep on it.

SGT. DON ADAM: But my question is this, everything I see about you Willy, tells me

that a) you’ve got a good memory, probably a great memory.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: I believe you know the details of each one of the murders that

you’ve committed and that’s important to me, just hear me out.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: That’s important to me Willy, because when you choose to tell

your side of the story, right.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: You’ll have the details, you’ll have all of that stuff.

ROBERT PICKTON: Pager.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah, I know, it’s always going off. (ADAM TURNS OFF PAGER)

And that’s what I’m interested, ultimately I’m interested in you telling

me the story of each and everyone of the deaths of these girls.

Right. Obviously.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: And the disposal of them. Right. But you tell me, what can I take

Page 228 of 252

back to my investigators so that they’re not gonna think I’m a

loon. Like what, what can I take back to them to say well, Willy

would really like us to show, shorten our search of, of the farm.

Agreed? That’s what you’d like.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, tit for tat more or less, but I mean that’s life, life goes on.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah, yeah, it will, I mean…

ROBERT PICKTON: (OVER TALKING) myself, I mean I say, if you wish to be there for

a year, be my guest.

SGT. DON ADAM: You know, so my question is …

ROBERT PICKTON: And if you wish, if you wish to dig the whole property up be my

guest.

SGT. DON ADAM: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: And if you want to dig the whole property but you’re still not gonna

find nothing.

SGT. DON ADAM: Alright, that’s your position.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. DON ADAM: And my question is…

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t, I don’t care if you’re digging up townhouses or where you

digging. I’ll just leave it that way there. I heard there was a other

comments about other tips where there’s mass graves. You

probably heard of that.

SGT. DON ADAM: Um, hum.

ROBERT PICKTON: And um, they probably showed you right where, right where

they’re buried and everything else and I wish you luck again. And

on and on and on.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well I tell you this if you were able to take us to a spot.

ROBERT PICKTON: No I can’t do that.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well it, certainly if you did…

ROBERT PICKTON: If I, I could I would.

Page 229 of 252

SGT. DON ADAM: Alright.

ROBERT PICKTON: But let’s go, on that route there. If I could I would.

SGT. DON ADAM: Obvious, because then that would free up your property right

away wouldn’t it. I mean.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. DON ADAM: Cause we’d be able to just go boom, boom, boom.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. DON ADAM: The other thing is if there was spots where something was on

your property, and you could point them then obviously that

(SNAPPING FINGERS) would allow us to go, yeah, okay, we’ve

done our job and now we’re history. That’s just in, good policing.

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s right. Bad policing your guys behalf. Right.

It took so long.

SGT. DON ADAM: Pardon.

ROBERT PICKTON: Bad policing on your behalf because its been so long.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah, cause it took so long to catch you. Yeah. Yeah, you’re

right. Yeah, and ah, I know a lot of policemen feel bad for the

families of these people. Did you ever think of quitting?

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. DON ADAM: Was it, is it that drive we talked about, like does that accurately

describe it, cause I would like to know, cause obviously someday

I’ll be sitting with somebody else Willy, it would be nice to…

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, it’ll all, it’ll all come out. It’ll all come out.

SGT. DON ADAM: These guys that lecture to us, talk about it fantasy, the fantasy of

the killing and that, is that, (PICKTON SHAKING HEAD “NO”) no

it’s not like that. Is it anger?

ROBERT PICKTON: Who said that?

SGT. DON ADAM: Well…

ROBERT PICKTON: Fantasy, what do you mean?

Page 230 of 252

SGT. DON ADAM: That, that serial killers have fantasies about what they want to do

to their victims and that they, for you nothing like that.

ROBERT PICKTON: No. No.

SGT. DON ADAM: Anger? Well you, you sort of said it was anger. Would I be right

in, in saying Willy, that you had reached the stage where you just

no longer sort of really viewed these girls as being worth anything.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: And you killed…

ROBERT PICKTON: But ah, no, no, that’s not. I had one more planned but that was,

that was the end of it. That was the last I was gonna shut it down,

that’s why I was just sloppy. Just the last one.

SGT. DON ADAM: You were gonna do one more.

ROBERT PICKTON: (INDECIPHERABLE) that was the end of it. That’s why I got sloppy

because the other thing never got that far.

SGT. DON ADAM: Like why didn’t you just drag that mattress that you, where killed

ah, Mona, why didn’t you just drag it out and burn it. I mean that

would have been…

ROBERT PICKTON: I don’t…

SGT. DON ADAM: …did you not realize there was blood underneath it? Like you don’t

have to say anything? Like if you’d a burnt it Willy, just sloppy.

ROBERT PICKTON: Sloppy like I just told you.

SGT. DON ADAM: Let me ask you a question? They talk about a, people keeping

trophies.

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. DON ADAM: So when you kept the women’s ID in your place that was just…

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. DON ADAM: …again sloppy.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. DON ADAM: Jesus Willy, you must be kicking yourself, like…

Page 231 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: I know.

SGT. DON ADAM: You gotta be, you gotta be saying like why. All you would have

had to do…

ROBERT PICKTON: I know.

SGT. DON ADAM: …is go through that, clean up.

ROBERT PICKTON: I know.

SGT. DON ADAM: And you’d still be on the street.

ROBERT PICKTON: I know.

SGT. DON ADAM: Oh, it must piss you off.

ROBERT PICKTON: I know.

SGT. DON ADAM: It must eh?

ROBERT PICKTON: I know.

SGT. DON ADAM: Like that mattress all you had to do was burn it. Well you would

have had to washed the walls right.

ROBERT PICKTON: Sloppiness.

SGT. DON ADAM: There’s, that mattress lays like this eh,..

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum, I know.

SGT. DON ADAM: Alright. She was obviously laying, our experts, like they’re amazing

eh. Now there’s the blood cast off as, as you were hitting her.

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well that’s, yeah, there’s, there’s what they call impact blood.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: Do you know what that means?

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. DON ADAM: Um…

Page 232 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: Hitting her, what do you mean, no, no, no you’re, you’re, you guys

are way off the deep end.

SGT. DON ADAM: No there’s, there’s did you choke her to death or …

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well there’s impact blood, there’s blood that’s cast off from, from

where she’s laying, right.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum, um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well how do you explain that then, I don’t understand. Like did

she kinda try and, I know there’s bloody palm prints in there too.

Was she trying to get away. I mean clearly you didn’t choke her to

death, Willy.

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. DON ADAM: Because there’s blood all over the place.

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. DON ADAM: Right, so I mean, you know, did you use a hatchet or did you…

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. DON ADAM: Like a hammer or something.

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. DON ADAM: Like what, tell me. Come on man, I’m dying to know for heaven

sakes, I’ve investigated this for a year.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: Share at least that much with me.

ROBERT PICKTON: It’ll come out in the wash.

SGT. DON ADAM: Come on, come on, we sat here all night. Come on you’re dying

to tell me. I can see it in your eyes. Willy look at me.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: You’re dying to tell me.

Page 233 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. DON ADAM: What did you use?

ROBERT PICKTON: Sloppiness.

SGT. DON ADAM: (PAUSE) Yeah, well obviously it was sloppy right. Did you even

think about cleaning up?

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: How come you didn’t?

ROBERT PICKTON: Too busy working job sites.

SGT. DON ADAM: Did you kill her like on a you know, was it a weekday or a

weeknight, or…

ROBERT PICKTON: You’re making me a murderer more than I am.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well, no I’m not.

ROBERT PICKTON: (LAUGHING)

SGT. DON ADAM: No I’m not Willy. You’ve made yourself a murderer. (PAUSE) My

suspicion is that with your memory, you probably know exactly what

day, you know, what time at night, everything. Let’s deal

with just that one. Mona WILSON in the, in the mobile home. Firstly,

why take her to the mobile home? Like why not do it in your trailer?

ROBERT PICKTON: No comment.

SGT. DON ADAM: Come on.

ROBERT PICKTON: No comment.

SGT. DON ADAM: Just cause it was gonna be messy.

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. DON ADAM: Was she living out there or staying there?

ROBERT PICKTON: No comment.

SGT. DON ADAM: Willy, come on, give it up. Come on you owe me that much.

Page 234 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: You’re not gonna, you’ve been thinking on this one eh. So you’ve

been thinking on this for awhile it must have been, you really must

be really doing your, your homework.

SGT. DON ADAM: I do tend to do my homework. You were doing job sites, do you

work on the weekends?

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum. Work everyday.

SGT. DON ADAM: Oh, so that doesn’t mean anything. When you choose to tell me,

do you remember whether it was a, a weekday or a weeknight or

do you remember?

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: Cause that wasn’t that long ago, right.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum. No comment.

SGT. DON ADAM: Alright.

ROBERT PICKTON: I’ll leave you in suspicion.

SGT. DON ADAM: Pardon?

ROBERT PICKTON: I’ll leave you in suspicion.

SGT. DON ADAM: In suspense yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: Suspense. I am nailed to the cross.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah, no you are, that’s true. There’s evidence they tell me, of

other blood drag marks, where, where you’ve killed somebody else

in that motor home. That’s gonna be DNA’d, there’s no point in us,

did you do most of the killing out there…

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. DON ADAM: … or most of it in the trailer or most of it in the slaughterhouse.

ROBERT PICKTON: Run that by me, run that by me again.

SGT. DON ADAM: Okay. There’s sort of three Willy, three sites alright, the motor

home, alright. So you killed Mona …

ROBERT PICKTON: Let’s work, let’s work with the motor home.

Page 235 of 252

SGT. DON ADAM: Okay. The motor home you killed Mona on the bed, right, we

agreed, on the foamy. But there’s another, there’s more blood

agree?

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. DON ADAM: That’s where that happened yeah. Cause well the blood tells the

truth. Right.

ROBERT PICKTON: Okay. Tell me (INDECIPHERABLE) (BILL FORDY PASSES

PHOTO BOARD INTO THE ROOM)

SGT. DON ADAM: Oh! Bill has just handed in a, a picture.

ROBERT PICKTON: Oh, that’s nice.

SGT. DON ADAM: They’ve got a lot of fancy pictures of your place. Okay, so we’re

talking about the motor home, where is it Willy?

ROBERT PICKTON: Down, right there.

SGT. DON ADAM: Right here.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: So let’s talk about it and sort of how many girls died in there.

Mona died on the foamy. Alright.

ROBERT PICKTON: No comment.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well we just discussed that so.

ROBERT PICKTON: No comment.

SGT. DON ADAM: How many other girls died in there because we have other blood

trails of other victims in there.

ROBERT PICKTON: Why what else you got in there?

SGT. DON ADAM: Ah, more blood. Different, different, from a different person.

ROBERT PICKTON: What?

SGT. DON ADAM: I’m not sure alright, cause you gotta remember I don’t work at the

site, I actually work out of our headquarters.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

Page 236 of 252

SGT. DON ADAM: Where I’m running the investigative side of this.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: How many is there gonna be?

ROBERT PICKTON: Where have they moved into, where’s their, where’s their office?

SGT. DON ADAM: They’ve got back in over here, there’s ah, about eight…

ROBERT PICKTON: Over there.

SGT. DON ADAM: …eight trailers. Up in here somewhere.

ROBERT PICKTON: No, nothing up there.

SGT. DON ADAM: Nothing buried there.

ROBERT PICKTON: No, there’s nothing over there, how can you get in there.

SGT. DON ADAM: They laid down about fifty thousand dollars worth of gravel, put

trailers in it, they’ve run power in there, water, they got a city on

your property right now. Willy, you’re very large. Like there’s got

to be a small part of you that’s pretty proud of the fact that you’re

the most notorious guy in Canada right now. I can see it in your

face. It’s true isn’t it?

ROBERT PICKTON: No comment.

SGT. DON ADAM: Just tell me the truth. Like you’re not, I think you’re not happy

with the trouble you’re causing your family, agreed?

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s very true.

SGT. DON ADAM: But you gotta admit there’s a part of you that’s pretty proud of what

you’ve accomplished here. A part, look at me, (PICKTON FACES

ADAM) you know, a part. Agreed, I see it in you Willy, I read

people, that’s what I do.

ROBERT PICKTON: So is that the gravel in behind there?

SGT. DON ADAM: No, it’s not there yet, in this picture. This is…

ROBERT PICKTON: This it right there, right th, right back there isn’t it? Right…

SGT. DON ADAM: No.

Page 237 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: Down, down lower, there, up, up, right there.

SGT. DON ADAM: No that’s just part of the farm. This picture does not capture, this

would have been an early picture. So we were talking about this,

how many girls in there? One for sure. (PAUSE) Because this is

one way we can test your truthfulness Willy, alright, alright. If you’re

truth with me and you go well Don, you could find up of five different

women’s blood in there and we do find it, then we can sit there and

say okay, you know, now we can start to believe what Willy says.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: Alright. So my question is how many?

ROBERT PICKTON: I’d say two, probably two, maybe three.

SGT. DON ADAM: Okay, so we’ve got Mona obviously, right?

ROBERT PICKTON: No. We got nobody yet.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah, we do. But we got Mona, trust me Mona’s the one on the

mattress with…

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

(21:30)

SGT. DON ADAM: …with her blood, did you use that dildo on her? It’s got her DNA

on the tip, it’s got yours, you did, didn’t you. Was she alive or dead?

ROBERT PICKTON: Alive.

SGT. DON ADAM: When you used it eh? Did you shoot her?

ROBERT PICKTON: Shoot her?

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah, well it’s on the .22 maybe she…

ROBERT PICKTON: No. There’s not holes through it, I put no holes through that.

SGT. DON ADAM: No, no, but you might have taken it off and shot the girl. Like

whatever you did caused a lot of blood right.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum. Well you did, you did some of your homework.

SGT. DON ADAM: Why not just tell me?

Page 238 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: What can I tell you.

SGT. DON ADAM: You’re having fun playing cat and mouse with me here, Willy?

True.

ROBERT PICKTON: I’m telling you, I’m telling you well what you got me right?

SGT. DON ADAM: Um, hum. But why don’t we just deal with, with Mona WILSON

ah, you, like the things I’d be curious to know, is why you used the

motor home instead of the trailer. Is that, and I, is it just because

you knew it might be bloody or a mess or was she out there and

you went out there to her. Like how did it happen?

ROBERT PICKTON: Well, I don’t know what date you got on there.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well you know the date.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum. But what date you got on the paper?

SGT. DON ADAM: That she disappeared?

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum. Giving your head a rattle am I.

SGT. DON ADAM: Pardon.

ROBERT PICKTON: I’m giving your head a rattle am I?

SGT. DON ADAM: Well you gotta remember that ah, Mona WILSON, was I’m gonna

say around the end of, somewhere in November, December of

last year. When did you get her out there, when did this happen?

ROBERT PICKTON: No, you’re close.

SGT. DON ADAM: Come on. Cough it up.

ROBERT PICKTON: You’re close. No, you’re close.

SGT. DON ADAM: But you used the dildo on her when she was still alive, is that

true?

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: Did she do anything to, to send you into a rage or was it just, it

was already planned, you had already said that.

ROBERT PICKTON: No, she didn’t want to have any sex.

Page 239 of 252

SGT. DON ADAM: Pardon.

ROBERT PICKTON: She didn’t want any, she didn’t want to do anything.

SGT. DON ADAM: So you, what did you just lose control of yourself?

ROBERT PICKTON: No. No comment. (LAUGHING) No comment at this stage.

(PAUSE) I’m already talking to you guys but not even supposed to

talk to you. But that’s here nor there. I am nailed to the cross and.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah, yeah, you are, that’s true.

ROBERT PICKTON: At this stage here, no comment.

SGT. DON ADAM: Okay. Do you remember where you killed ah, the other girl with

the inhaler?

ROBERT PICKTON: No comment again.

SGT. DON ADAM: Let me guess, would I be right if I guessed in the slaughter area?

(POINTING TO PHOTO BOARD) Or was she dead by the time she

made it there?

ROBERT PICKTON: No comment.

SGT. DON ADAM: Come on Willy, if you gonna, if you want me to believe…

ROBERT PICKTON: No comment.

SGT. DON ADAM: But just hear me out, if you want me to believe that you haven’t

buried these girls whole in here, alright.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: Then, then what you’re telling me alright, is gonna be that ultimately

you either, took them into the, the slaughter area alive, or took them

in there dead and disposed of them. Agreed? That’s true.

ROBERT PICKTON: No comment.

SGT. DON ADAM: No. No, no. Willy, you’re the one who’s asking me about your farm.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. DON ADAM: Alright so.

ROBERT PICKTON: I’m just telling you.

Page 240 of 252

SGT. DON ADAM: No, no, no, you hear me out, you’re the one who’s asking me and

you’re asking me to believe you and put some faith in you.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. DON ADAM: And talk to my investigators.

ROBERT PICKTON: I already told you how many’s in the trailer. Probably, maybe up

to as high as three in that, in the motor home.

SGT. DON ADAM: Alright.

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s was as far as we got.

SGT. DON ADAM: Right.

ROBERT PICKTON: Possibly.

SGT. DON ADAM: Okay, then how many in the, in your, how many in here?

(POINTING TO BOARD)

ROBERT PICKTON: No comment.

SGT. DON ADAM: Now why, why not give me a ball park on that?

ROBERT PICKTON: Cause I gotta talk to Dinah. Private. No comment at this stage.

SGT. DON ADAM: Um, hum. Alright, then answer me this, when you talk about the

three is the girl with the inhaler in here or somewhere else? That’s a

fair question.

ROBERT PICKTON: You’re off.

SGT. DON ADAM: What do you mean I’m off? Like, okay, so she’s not in here. You

didn’t kill in there. Alright.

ROBERT PICKTON: You’re off.

SGT. DON ADAM: Like, now you need to explain that. Where did you kill her?

ROBERT PICKTON: No comment.

SGT. DON ADAM: Willy, Willy, Willy, Willy. If you’re asking me to believe you and

you’re asking me to go back to my investigators, that’s what

you’re doing aren’t you? You’re asking me …

Page 241 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: Well…

SGT. DON ADAM: …to have some faith in what you say to me…

ROBERT PICKTON: Well…

SGT. DON ADAM: …and yet you give me nothing.

ROBERT PICKTON: You.

SGT. DON ADAM: I’m gonna look like an idiot, I’m gonna go back and say well, …

ROBERT PICKTON: You think it over.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well you give me something I can take back and not look like an

idiot.

ROBERT PICKTON: I am, I am giving you something to think over.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah, well fair enough, you’ve been up front about this killing.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. DON ADAM: And you’ve said yeah, there’s two or …

ROBERT PICKTON: Possible.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well you said two or three more. But my…

ROBERT PICKTON: Possible two.

SGT. DON ADAM: Two more. But my question to you is alright, I don’t want to look

like an idiot, alright.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: Heaven knows I already am an idiot, I’m not even supposed to be

in this room, they got this little thing Willy, where you’re supposed

to do certain jobs.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: Alright. My job is not to be in the front line sitting here, chatting

with you and yet, here I am, right.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

Page 242 of 252

SGT. DON ADAM: So already I’m gonna be in shit, so my question of you, is that….

ROBERT PICKTON: But I want to let you know, where we’re standing at.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well then, then you, as you and I both know, you’re finished on

the inhaler girl, which is ABOTSWAY, Sereena.

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. DON ADAM: So give me, well you are.

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well sure, you’re caught in a whole bunch of lies about the

inhaler. Right?

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well sure you are.

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. DON ADAM: Willy.

ROBERT PICKTON: No. I said no comment.

SGT. DON ADAM: Look at me for a second. You are.

ROBERT PICKTON: No. No comment at this stage.

SGT. DON ADAM: Alright.

ROBERT PICKTON: Let’s leave it like that way there.

SGT. DON ADAM: So when you give, what are you giving me to take back to my

people other than obviously Mona WILSON’s murder. What are

you giving me to, that I can say Willy’s not just stringing me full of

shit. Okay, you give me something, you tell what, what you give

me that will allow me to go back to my people…

ROBERT PICKTON: I told you already.

SGT. DON ADAM: …and hold my face.

ROBERT PICKTON: I told you already.

SGT. DON ADAM: Like what?

Page 243 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: I said there’ll be other people involved.

SGT. DON ADAM: You haven’t told me who though?

ROBERT PICKTON: I didn’t, no. Why should I tell you that?

SGT. DON ADAM: Why not?

ROBERT PICKTON: Cause you, because they’re not involved yet.

SGT. DON ADAM: You mean like in other words, it’s not out in the open yet.

ROBERT PICKTON: Tit for tat.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well let me step out.

ROBERT PICKTON: No, I’ll let you sleep on it. You gonna sleep on it a day or two or

whatever.

SGT. DON ADAM: Okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: If you want to dig the property up, be my guest.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah, well let me step out. (STANDS UP) Okay, I’ll be back in a

sec, alright.

ROBERT PICKTON: Just, just like I said, just sleep on it for a day or two.

SGT. DON ADAM: Sorry, are you getting tired or are you okay?

ROBERT PICKTON: I’m okay.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah, you seem okay. Frankly you got more zip in you now than I

do.

ROBERT PICKTON: No. It’s just I’m telling you right now, because I’m nailed to the

cross anyways.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah. Why not give me everything then?

ROBERT PICKTON: Why should I do that? Ah, what, what grounds have I got to stand

on?

SGT. DON ADAM: I guess, if I said it would be the right thing to do Willy, that wouldn’t

mean anything.

Page 244 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: No.

SGT. DON ADAM: Okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: Cause I gotta talk to Dinah first, I told you that.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah, what about, so the families of these people, the families of

these girls…

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s not my comment, that’s not my problem.

SGT. DON ADAM: But they’re not…

ROBERT PICKTON: Shit happens.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well you certainly sum up how you feel about it.

ROBERT PICKTON: I mean myself, I’m, I’m nailed, what I’m saying is I’m freeing the

property and, I’m taking a lot of extra work off your hands, what you

don’t have to do.

SGT. DON ADAM: You know something, I could care less about the work.

ROBERT PICKTON: Okay.

SGT. DON ADAM: My sole reason for, for being with you here is to try and do

something for these families.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: Alright, and I know you know, you don’t understand that and I

accept that, that’s…

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, but the problem is ah, I’m nailed already so what can I do?

Honestly, you tell me what I can do.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well let me ask you a question. If it was your niece or nephew,…

(21:40)

ROBERT PICKTON: Well…

SGT. DON ADAM: …wouldn’t you want …

ROBERT PICKTON: If it was my niece or nephew?

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah.

Page 245 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: They’re at the wrong place at the right time. What else can I say.

SGT. DON ADAM: I hear you. Let me step out …

ROBERT PICKTON: I mean, I’m nailed.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: I mean myself, the only thing they can do is shoot me, right, I

mean at this stage.

SGT. DON ADAM: Um, hum. Yeah, we don’t shoot people here in Canada.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, but the, no, no you follow what I’m trying to say, I mean.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: I’m nailed to the cross.

SGT. DON ADAM: Um, hum. Yeah…

ROBERT PICKTON: What can I, oh, what can I do?

SGT. DON ADAM: What about doing the right thing Willy?

ROBERT PICKTON: No, no, no because…

SGT. DON ADAM: Just think about if first.

ROBERT PICKTON: …I gotta talk ah, like I says, I gotta talk to my friend and so on and

so forth. Then everything comes out. If that’s okay and

everything’s draw ah, pulls out. But like I says, if you want to go

digging, and there’s lots of comment, lots of people out there, who

will tell you where their, where they’re buried. Go right ahead.

SGT. DON ADAM: All I want to do is be able to look into the eyes of these families….

ROBERT PICKTON: I mean, I mean, I mean the biggest thing is that you got some,

some heavy leads where their buried, I wouldn’t turn, I would take

that away from you. If I was you I would go for it.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well Willy, we, you know, I mean you’re…

ROBERT PICKTON: Only problem is you’re still not gonna find anything but that’s here

nor there. But the problem is…

SGT. DON ADAM: Well we got a statement from one of the, one of your friends.

Page 246 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: Okay.

SGT. DON ADAM: Where you told her that I’m finished because they are gonna dig.

You told her that.

ROBERT PICKTON: Who?

SGT. DON ADAM: I’m not gonna tell you, I’m not gonna …

ROBERT PICKTON: Okay.

SGT. DON ADAM: You know she, she said you know, I care about Willy, he’s my

friend but he did say that.

ROBERT PICKTON: What’s her name?

SGT. DON ADAM: I’m not gonna tell you that.

ROBERT PICKTON: Okay.

SGT. DON ADAM: Alright. But I can tell you this, is that she likes you.

ROBERT PICKTON: Okay. Must be Nancy.

SGT. DON ADAM: I’m not gonna tell you.

ROBERT PICKTON: Must be . . .

SGT. DON ADAM: But you know, you know, you know who you told that. But Willy

I’m not stupid you know, I mean, I’m not particularly bright, but I’m

not stupid.

ROBERT PICKTON: Okay ah, …

SGT. DON ADAM: You were worried and you told her that they’re gonna dig and I’m

finished.

ROBERT PICKTON: If they dig, and they find something.

SGT. DON ADAM: No, no, no.

ROBERT PICKTON: …all my, all my power.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well.

ROBERT PICKTON: All my power, if they know exactly where to dig or anything else,

Page 247 of 252

all your power. Your powers.

SGT. DON ADAM: Um, hum. And you’re not willing to do anything for these families.

To try and let them put something behind them on this?

ROBERT PICKTON: What can I say?

SGT. DON ADAM: The truth.

ROBERT PICKTON: How can you say the truth, when the truth’s not even out yet.

SGT. DON ADAM: Well you know the truth. You know whether there’s…

ROBERT PICKTON: That doesn’t mean nothing.

SGT. DON ADAM: Twenty or thirty or however many …

ROBERT PICKTON: That doesn’t mean nothing.

SGT. DON ADAM: …girls you’ve done.

ROBERT PICKTON: That doesn’t mean nothing.

SGT. DON ADAM: What do you mean, it doesn’t mean nothing?

ROBERT PICKTON: It doesn’t mean nothing, I mean, I mean, I’m nailed anyways, right.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah.

ROBERT PICKTON: Okay. So it don’t mean nothing.

SGT. DON ADAM: You know, Willy I hear ya, (SITS BACK DOWN) you know, and I sit

here and I, your complete lack of caring about these women you

know, that’s your business.

ROBERT PICKTON: Well I am…

SGT. DON ADAM: Just hear me out, just hear me out.

ROBERT PICKTON: No, no, not, not necessarily I mean, I respect them for worrying

about their off spring and for worrying about where they’re located

or where they are if they’re ah, inside of a cave or here or there.

Yes, I would, I would be in the same position as they are. But at,

at my stage right now, I haven’t got nothing to say. At this stage.

SGT. DON ADAM: But, and not that this matters a bit to you alright.

Page 248 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: But that’s, not everything matters.

SGT. DON ADAM: No, no, no but do you know who Clifford OLSON is?

ROBERT PICKTON: I’ve heard of him.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah, he’s, he was a serial killer. Killed, in his case, he killed little

girls.

ROBERT PICKTON: Okay.

SGT. DON ADAM: My, my partner, Jim HUNTER worked on that case.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: Alright.

ROBERT PICKTON: Okay.

SGT. DON ADAM: And when OLSON was caught he wheeled and dealed for the

bodies of those girls.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. DON ADAM: Right, with absolutely no remorse and…

ROBERT PICKTON: Okay.

SGT. DON ADAM: …you know, and Willy exactly, you’re exactly the same personality

as Clifford.

ROBERT PICKTON: Not necessarily.

SGT. DON ADAM: But you are. Alright.

ROBERT PICKTON: (INDECIPHERABLE)

SGT. DON ADAM: Now you forced me, just, just hear me out. (OVER TALKING)

ROBERT PICKTON: I mean, I don’t know, I’m only saying and I real, releasing the

property back, so they can get their life back together.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah, okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s all I’m saying.

SGT. DON ADAM: You know.

Page 249 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: Because otherwise you got everything all tied up.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yes, I hear that.

ROBERT PICKTON: That’s all I’m saying.

SGT. DON ADAM: I hear it Willy. I guess the part that bothers me the most alright, is

that, you know…

ROBERT PICKTON: The part that bothers me the most is you got the whole place tied

up and my brother can’t do anything. That’s all I’m saying. (PAGER

GOES OFF)

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah, I guess Willy. Look I’m gonna step out and talk to ah, talk to

my people okay. But I want you, I need to leave you with this, okay?

ROBERT PICKTON: How about I go back to my cell there.

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah. I leave, but I want you to hear me out.

ROBERT PICKTON: …and you think it over.

SGT. DON ADAM: You know Willy, I sit here and I try and see things from your eyes,

okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, but I…

SGT. DON ADAM: Just hear me out, just hear me out.

ROBERT PICKTON: No problem.

SGT. DON ADAM: And I have to do that because in order to further this case, …

ROBERT PICKTON: I know.

SGT. DON ADAM: I have to try and understand you. And I have to talk lightly about

what you did, because otherwise I’m gonna shut you down, and you

won’t talk to me. Alright, but all the time I’m seized with the fact that

while you and I are talking about this as if it’s so many ah, you

know, used cars.

ROBERT PICKTON: Well.

SGT. DON ADAM: That there are people who’s are, hearts are being broken and…

ROBERT PICKTON: What can I say?

Page 250 of 252

SGT. DON ADAM: Well I just want you to know how much it bothers me to have to sit

here and act as if this is just a chess game.

ROBERT PICKTON: It’s not a chess game but the problem is I’m just only asking you for

everybody get their life back together. That’s all I’m asking for.

SGT. DON ADAM: Alright. Let me think about that, I’ll be back in a sec.

ROBERT PICKTON: Do I get to go back to my cell?

SGT. DON ADAM: Yeah, let me ah, talk to my ah, people and I’m sure we can arrange

that. (PICKTON PICKS UP PICTURE BOARD OF FARM – SITS

BACK YAWNING) (ADAM LEAVES ROOM 4 MIN 16 SEC

LATER, FORDY RE-ENTERED THE ROOM)

SGT. Bill FORDY: Rob, how you doin?

ROBERT PICKTON: Oh, …

SGT. Bill FORDY: What’s that?

ROBERT PICKTON: (INDECIPHERABLE)

SGT. Bill FORDY: Um, Don asked me to come and ah, just take you back to your cell.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, no problem.

SGT. Bill FORDY: I guess he said you wanted to go to your cell for awhile. One thing

ah, I should mention to you, is a little, a couple of minutes ago

about fifteen minutes ago, or so, I think, I don’t know the exact time,

your lawyer came, she’s gone for a coffee.

ROBERT PICKTON: Um, hum.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Ah, do you want to phone her before you…

ROBERT PICKTON: She coming back?

SGT. Bill FORDY: No, she’s gone for a coffee. My question is do you want to phone

her, do you want to, she was by to see you is what I’m telling you.

So I mean, if you want to phone her, that’s up to you.

ROBERT PICKTON: I could wait here for her.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Pardon?

Page 251 of 252

ROBERT PICKTON: I could wait here for her.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Oh no, you won’t, you won’t see her in here.

ROBERT PICKTON: Oh.

SGT. Bill FORDY: I mean I’m gonna take you back to your cell, but before you go to

sleep, I guess my question is, if you want me to phone, phone her

up and ask her to come back and see you, it’s up to you.

ROBERT PICKTON: It don’t matter.

SGT. Bill FORDY: It doesn’t matter? I mean it’s up to you, do you want to see her or

not, do you want to go to sleep.

ROBERT PICKTON: It doesn’t matter. I’m okay, no problem.

SGT. Bill FORDY: You don’t need to see her.

ROBERT PICKTON: No, if she wants to see me, no problem.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Oh, do you want to stay here. It’s, it’s your right.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, no problem, no problem. No problem.

SGT. Bill FORDY: You don’t need to.

ROBERT PICKTON: No, it doesn’t matter.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay.

ROBERT PICKTON: I mean if she’s in this area.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Oh, she’s gone for a coffee.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah.

SGT. Bill FORDY: So, um, I guess my point is that it’s up to you like that, whether or

not you want to see her. Just because she wants to see you, it

doesn’t matter, it’s up to you. If you just want to relax and go to

sleep I mean.

ROBERT PICKTON: It don’t matter. Don’t matter. It don’t matter.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay. I mean it’s up to you that’s all.

ROBERT PICKTON: No, no, no problem.

Page 252 of 252

SGT. Bill FORDY: No. Okay. No, you don’t want to see her, or yes you do?

ROBERT PICKTON: No, no, don’t matter, if she’s in this area I might as well see her.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Well I don’t know where she is, that’s the thing, she’s gone for a

coffee somewhere.

ROBERT PICKTON: Yeah, I’ll phone her and see where she is.

SGT. Bill FORDY: Okay, you want to phone her, okay. That’s okay. Good, I’m glad we

resolved that. Follow me. Time is ah, 9:54. (LEAVE ROOM)

INTERVIEW CONCLUDED AT 22:00 HOURS ON 2002-02-23

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